News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by threatofrain on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:22AM (#11116803)
I'm afraid I'm too skeptical to get the same assurances as you.

Apple accuses the FBI of playing language games with the term "backdoor", but I think Apple has done the same. The fact that they can push weak OS updates to a locked phone is the backdoor. This means that they can already comply with the court order, and they likely will. This letter covers them from PR damage.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by coderjames on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:58AM (#11117848)
I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion that Apple can push OS updates to a locked phone.

What Tim Cook wrote is that > "install it on an iPhone recovered during the investigation." > "the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession."

So the FBI has the physical phone already. They can deliver to Apple who can disassemble it and either use a JTAG/Flash programmer on an internal connector to manually write new software, or they could desolder the Flash holding the old OS and place a new one.

Both of these techniques are common enough in the embedded industry that I expect this is what Apple means. They probably can't push an OTA software update and force the install on a locked device.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by xenadu02 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:49PM (#11119667)
The 5C at issue in this case does not have the modern secure enclave like the 5S and newer devices.

The newer devices run a special L4 kernel on the secure enclave. It is not updateable without providing the existing passcode. It enforces the attempt rate limiting and key deletion on too many attempts (if enabled). Special limited communication channels allow the CPU to talk to the SE. In production devices the SE has JTAG disabled. Encryption and decryption of the master keys happen inside the SE with its own private AES engine so even oracle/timing attacks on the main CPU are useless.

Why doesn't Apple just help hack this phone but wash their hands of newer devices and tell customers to upgrade? Because if the FBI and this court get away with using the All Writs act to compel Apple to write new software they'll eventually be forced to add a backdoor to SE-equipped devices too. Courts won't understand or care about the differences.

If the government forced them, Apple could insert a backdoor into the next major version of iOS or the hardware; then everyone inputs their passcode during the upgrade and the backdoor is deployed. Their primary defense against that so far (and the only real one you can have as a corporation) is to never build the capability in the first place. This judge's order is telling them to go build the capability (in theory for this one phone). The fact that you can't retroactively build the backdoor for 5S and newer devices isn't the main issue.

Better to fight every step of the way and draft as many pro-privacy people as possible into the fight to apply political pressure.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by wildmusings on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:28PM (#11120048)
> Because if the FBI and this court get away with using the All Writs act to compel Apple to write new software they'll eventually be forced to add a backdoor to SE-equipped devices too. Courts won't understand or care about the differences

The whole point is that it doesn't matter what the court thinks if Apple cannot comply due to the laws of nature. That was their whole argument to begin with. Their argument now is pretty mushy in comparison.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by rsync on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:28AM (#11118941)
"I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion that Apple can push OS updates to a locked phone."

The iphone contains a sim card.

A sim card is a complete, general purpose computer with its own CPU and RAM and the ability to run arbitrary java programs that can be uploaded, without your knowledge by your carrier.

You are owned. Deeply, profoundly, in ways that you have no way to manage/mitigate.

The real question, for me, is why authorities are dealing with Apple at all and not just working with the carriers who have proven to be their trusted allies.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by stcredzero on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:07PM (#11119853)
You are owned. Deeply, profoundly, in ways that you have no way to manage/mitigate.

The international legal framework of sovereignty basically says you are owned. (Not universally de jure, but pretty much de facto.) Whatever rights you have are effectively granted to you by your country. Unfortunately, this notion is seldom given any thought, and the current most visible proponents of such an idea are unpleasant angry underclass men using it as an excuse to behave badly. There are others who have given thought to this, however, and it is part of the motivation behind such things as The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human...

Re:A Message to Our Customers by snowwrestler on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:07PM (#11119303)
I think the answer to your question is embedded in your assumption: that updating the SIM card would be sufficient to recover data from this iPhone.

In my experience, law enforcement does not make their own jobs harder on purpose. If there is an easy way to get that data, they would use that way to get it.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by JoshTriplett on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:03PM (#11119274)
With a sensibly-built phone, that SIM card does not have the ability to access anything of value on the device.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by nitrogen on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:21PM (#11119423)
Is there a list of sensibly built phones available? I'd like to buy a phone where the modem and SIM do not have access to main memory (AIUI most phones use a single-chip SoC with a built-in modem).
Re:A Message to Our Customers by an_account on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:37PM (#11119565)
What's the point of accessing main memory in a locked and encrypted phone?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by JoshTriplett on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @03:48PM (#11121237)
Main memory is rarely encrypted, unless you have special security features in your CPU to do so. Only the disk is encrypted; main memory is vulnerable while running. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_boot_attack

So you don't want any hardware to have access to main memory if it doesn't need to. For instance, you can use an IOMMU to ensure that devices can only access the specific areas the OS wants to allow them to DMA to/from, not all of memory.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by hackuser on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:07PM (#11119858)
> What's the point of accessing main memory in a locked and encrypted phone?

The phone isn't always locked and encrypted; for example, whenever the user is using the phone it's unlocked and decrypted.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by sjwright on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:14PM (#11123436)
The iPhone, for one.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by digler999 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:53AM (#11119176)
> why authorities are dealing with Apple at all

I'd guess "security by obscurity". Just because they have the device rooted via SIM card doesn't mean they have available a signed build of a multi-gigabyte OS with most security libraries expunged.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by aetherson on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @02:32PM (#11120543)
One possible answer to your "real question":

I want to disclaim that this is pure speculation. I have no insider knowledge or indeed any particular familiarity with the institutions in question.

The FBI may want this authority and this precedent and think that this is a good chance to get it. They may say, "Well, the San Bernadino case is a high-profile case that may sway people, including judges, who would otherwise be less inclined to back our request. Who knows when the next nationally-publicized case will be in which the likely perpetrator carries an iPhone?" They may also believe that the current political climate is good for their case.

And they probably also believe that there's no harm in trying. If the courts rule against them, they haven't lost anything. If the courts rule for them, they get a brand new tool.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by yuubi on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @07:58PM (#11122880)
A sim card gets to send messages to the baseband in response to requests from the baseband. It doesn't have arbitrary memory access unless the baseband has really nasty bugs.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by mehrdada on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:59AM (#11118233)
They need to break the boot trust chain to load unsigned code. Simply rewriting the flash isn't enough.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by Someone1234 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:11AM (#11118300)
Why would the code be unsigned? If Apple wrote the backdoor OS, they could presumably sign it.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by mehrdada on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @02:53PM (#11120718)
I incorrectly totally misread the OP and thought was talking about FBI flashing it themselves, without Apple help. Yes, of course Apple can sign it. I stand corrected but can't delete my comment.

To clarify, I agree that nothing they ask of Apple is technically impossible or even that difficult for Apple to pull off, probably via simple DFU without touching the flash at all.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by DSingularity on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:13AM (#11118317)
Hence the need for a validbOS from Apple.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by knodi123 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:13AM (#11118312)
why load unsigned code? can't apple sign it?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by VLM on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:17AM (#11118843)
Or anyone else with the apple key such as the NSA.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by nevir on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:31AM (#11118974)
The judge wouldn't need to ask Apple if that were the case.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by RandomBK on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:01PM (#11119254)
Or the NSA doesn't want to reveal that they have Apple's code signing key.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by tertius on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:47PM (#11119656)
True, but a judge wouldn't allow the NSA to decrypt with a stole key either.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by frandroid on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:08PM (#11119316)
That wouldn't be valid evidence in court.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by ck2 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:02AM (#11118249)
Pretty sure you can upgrade the OS on a locked phone if you have physical access to it.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by FussyZeus on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:12AM (#11118305)
Negative. You need the passcode.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by jandrese on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:41AM (#11118534)
If you lose the PIN on an iPhone you need to do a wipe and restore it from backup. You had better hope you remembered the backup password. You can't make a backup of a locked phone either.

The backup is probably easier to attack if you have it, since it doesn't have hardware imposed timeouts on password guesses. It may not be current however.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by FussyZeus on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:17AM (#11118841)
I'm not sure the backup would be much help even if you could break into it, I believe it's encrypted with the same method used to protect the keychain and is tied to the victim's Apple ID. I attempted to help a coworker restore their device with my Mac and couldn't because my iTunes was using a different Apple ID than the device and the device's backup.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by johnward on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:38AM (#11118504)
There is no way to recover a phone if you lose the passcode?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by codezero on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:56AM (#11118666)
If you have access to the iTunes account you can do a physical backup with iTunes and then erase and restore that backup. It won't be pin protected.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by solaceb on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:18AM (#11118853)
How would one connect the phone to iTunes to do this? You must enter the PIN on the phone to connect to iTunes iirc.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by codezero on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:19PM (#11119398)
Not to do a backup and restore.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by aeonflux on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:09PM (#11119323)
Not even sure what you mean by "iTunes account"?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by codezero on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:18PM (#11119394)
Errr, sorry I think it's called iCloud now :P
Re:A Message to Our Customers by tedmiston on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:34PM (#11119537)
Apple ID
Re:A Message to Our Customers by FussyZeus on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:18AM (#11118849)
Not that I know of. Like others have said you can pull a backup (but the machine backing up had to have been trusted prior or you're SOL) and then restore the phone.

Nothing's bulletproof but the iPhone is the most trustworthy IMHO.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by grandalf on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:59AM (#11118689)
I believe this is to deter theft.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by johnward on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:18AM (#11118857)
I've locked out my galaxy s6 using the wrong password and it just wiped and reinstalled by itself. Then allowed me to restored everything that was on cloud backup.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by aeonflux on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:45AM (#11118564)
Nope. I've been there, did resonable research and had to start over.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by pweissbrod on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:03AM (#11117548)
+1. If it is possible to push software updates to a "locked" phone then is this not tantamount to remote code execution with root privileges, and hence the BACKDOOR ALREADY EXISTS?

"Locked" seems like an improper term for such a scenario.

I applaud apple for appealing this case to the public however there is a HUGE HUGE difference between "we can't unlock" and "we shouldn't unlock". This distinction will likely be lost on the general public unfortunately.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by germanier on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:40AM (#11117725)
Nowhere in this letter they say that it's possible and it seems very carefully worded to avoid stating that. They say, if it were possible they wouldn't do it anyway. That's an important legal and moral distinction.

To be fair, they could have stated it explicitly.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by hasenj on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:56AM (#11117830)
It's stated very clearly that they can push an update to an already existing device that would make it possible to retrieve "encrypted" data from said device.

If the data was truly encrypted, the concept of pushing an update or creating a master key would not be possible.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by andreyvit on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:08AM (#11117902)
They state that they can push an update that makes brute-forcing possible by disabling software-enforced delays between attempts.

Apple's security PDF says that the iteration count is calibrated so that one attempt takes 80ms in hardware, so that's the hard limit on the brute forcing speed, regardless of any updates Apple releases.

This means that a long alphanumeric passphrase is secure, but a 6-digit passcode could be broken in half a day, and a 4-digit passcode would take just a dozen minutes.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by imh on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:11PM (#11119332)
It's so weird how hard it is for the brain to handle exponential growth. I was amazed that a 4-digit password can be cracked so quickly at 80ms a pop, but you're right. Just for the hell of it, here's how long it would take for different length passcodes for digits, digits plus letters (case insensitive), and digits plus letters (case sensitive):

    # characters  [0-9]         [0-9a-z]            [0-9a-zA-Z]
    1             0.8 seconds   2.9 seconds         5   seconds
    2             8   seconds   1.7 minutes         5.1 minutes
    3             1.3 minutes   1   hour            5.3 hours
    4             13  minutes   1.6 days            2   weeks
    5             2.2 hours     8   weeks           2.3 years
    6             22  hours     5.5 years           140 years
    7             1.3 weeks     200 years           9   thousand years
    8             13  weeks     7   thousand years  550 thousand years
    9             2.5 years     260 thousand years  34  million years
    10            25  years     9   million years   2   billion years
Re:A Message to Our Customers by tedmiston on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:36PM (#11119556)
Does this consider the "too many incorrect attempts" lockout that iOS imposes though?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by imh on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:16PM (#11119940)
Nope, it's just 80ms multiplied by the number of possibilities.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by typeformer on Friday February 19, 2016 @03:33AM (#11132360)
According to Snowden, the NSA can brute force at the speed of over a trillion guesses a second, of course, they would need to be able to disable other security features first.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by germanier on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:07AM (#11117897)
Ok, I read the entire thing once again. Nowhere in there do they state that they can comply with the request, only the consequences that would result if it were possible. In fact they say they "even put that data out of our own reach".

If it is stated very clearly, can you quote me a sentence?

In the security guide linked here it seems possible for this iPhone model but not later ones.

Edit: According to the discussion below Apple can ship updates to the secure enclave. I don't know if that's possible to a locked phone.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by spdustin on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:30AM (#11118959)
The word "push" appears nowhere in their letter. There is no way (in evidence) of "pushing" anything to the locked phone OTA. Physical access as a requirement? Sure, there's likely some way to get something onto the phone. But any DFU or JTAG-enabled update (likely the only vectors available on a passcode-protected device) would not be able to gain access to any appreciable fraction of the data on the phone, since doing so would invalidate the keys.

I wouldn't be surprised (It isn't stated in their iOS security doc) if the key generation uses a hash of the system files as part of a seed for the entropy source used for keys, though that's pure speculation on my part.

Edited for clarity regarding "push" vs physical access.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by MCRed on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:44AM (#11118119)
No, they state clearly that this is what the court ordered them to do. That doesn't mean it is possible. The court doesn't care whether something is possible or not.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by flockonus on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:16AM (#11117949)
That doesn't sound all correct. Assuming the phone holds an encryption key that can read/write local data, a software update could simply command it to decrypt all data and save it as a copy.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by snuxoll on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:35AM (#11119013)
A device containing an encryption key that's just protected by a software password check would be absolutely useless. Part or all of the encryption key (maybe even the IV) is derived from the phone passphrase, this is why you can't just pop the NVRAM off a phone and try to find the key.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by zander312 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @03:55PM (#11121299)
yes this is very interesting!
Re:A Message to Our Customers by superuser2 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:23AM (#11118400)
No. The word "remote" is not applicable to an attack that only works with physical possession of the device.

As far as I'm aware there is no known technique to prevent someone with physical access, a bunch of engineers, and the code signing keys from replacing firmware.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by pweissbrod on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:35AM (#11118486)
"locked" is a relative term. Anything encrypted can be broken with enough effort. But that is the semantic difference between leveraging a back door and brutally busting open the front door. I want a device where there is no back door. I hope you can appreciate that difference.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by mikeash on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:34AM (#11119006)
The iPhones with an A7 or later CPU should be secure against this. This whole thing is only an issue because the phone in question is an iPhone 5C, which uses an older CPU without the "secure enclave" system.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by bumbledraven on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:40PM (#11119592)
If it only applies to older iPhones, why did Cook write, "this software ... would have the potential to unlock any iPhone in someone’s physical possession"? (emphasis mine)
Re:A Message to Our Customers by ubernostrum on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:55PM (#11119725)
Because it's likely that it wouldn't end with "unlock this 5C" -- it would eventually extend to the government forcing Apple to either stop providing the additional security features in its newer models, or find ways to ship something that looks kinda like the security feature but isn't really.

Drawing the line in the sand at "the government can't force us to hack this guy's phone this time" thus ends up being "can't force us to provide features to hack anyone else's phone down the line".

Re:A Message to Our Customers by mikeash on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:43PM (#11119616)
I don't know. Either Cook is confused or I am. From everything else I've read, it's Cook. If I'm the one who's confused, then Apple really dropped the ball.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by kobayashi on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:39PM (#11119587)
Would you expand upon this?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by mikeash on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:07PM (#11119854)
Sure thing.

Starting with the A7 CPUs, the iPhone CPU has a "secure enclave" which is basically a miniature SoC within the SoC. The secure enclave has its own CPU with its own secure boot chain and runs independently of the rest of the system. It runs a modified L4 microkernel and it does all of low-level key management.

The secure enclave contains a unique ID burned into the hardware. This ID can be loaded as a key into the hardware AES engine, but is otherwise designed to be completely inaccessible. Assuming AES is secure, that means the key can be used to encrypt data but can't be extracted, not even by the supposedly secure software running in the secure enclave. This key is then used to generate other keys, like the ones used to encrypt files. That means you can't extract the flash memory, connect it to a computer, and then try to brute force it from there. Or rather you can, but you'll be brute forcing a 256-bit AES key, not a 4-digit PIN, making it effectively impossible.

One of the secure enclave's tasks is taking a PIN (or fingerprint) and turning it into the encryption key needed to read the user's files. The main system just hands off the user's code to the secure enclave, and gets back either a key or a failure. The escalating delays with successive failures and wipe after too many failures are both done in the secure enclave. That means that updating the device's main OS won't affect it.

All of this is discussed in Apple's security guide here:

https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

The one open question is software updates for the secure enclave. According to that guide, its software can be updated. Does that mean it can be updated with code that removes the restrictions and allows brute-forcing passcodes? The guide doesn't address how the updates work.

My guess, based on how meticulous Apple is about everything else, is that updates are designed to make this scenario impossible. The secure enclave must be unlocked to apply an update, or if updated without unlocking it wipes the master keys. This would be pretty simple to do, and it would fit in with the rest of their approach, so I think it's likely that this is how it works, or something with the same effect.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by kobayashi on Thursday February 18, 2016 @01:21AM (#11124031)
So after having asked you to expand upon the topic, I ended up reading a few articles on the matter. While they were all very thorough and informative, your summary above was by far the clearest and most succinct. Thanks very much!
Re:A Message to Our Customers by mikeash on Thursday February 18, 2016 @09:12AM (#11125806)
Thanks for saying so, and I'm glad you found it helpful. Maybe I should expand this into a real article of my own.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by kobayashi on Monday February 29, 2016 @02:54AM (#11194162)
Late reply, but yes, I think you could totally do so. You already have a lot of material off which to build.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by rhaps0dy on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:34AM (#11117687)
You probably meant "this is tantamount". Otherwise, I don't understand what you're saying. Are you claiming the backdoor already exists, or that it does not?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by gnoway on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:39AM (#11117720)
Parent was asking a question, "is this not tantamount to x?" With the expected answer being "no, this is not not tantamount to x" which reduces to "yes, this is tantamount to x."

In this case, the intended answer/conclusion/implication is "yes, this is."

Re:A Message to Our Customers by em3rgent0rdr on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:38AM (#11116882)
Freedom from forced update is one of Stallman's motivations for free software.

Just one terrorist attack + PR letter to customer + forced update away from loosing encryption on your phone.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by kec on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @01:02PM (#11119807)
On the other hand, if iOS were open source / the iPhone was able to run unsigned code there would be nothing stopping the FBI from just doing what they've asked apple to do themselves (assuming it's actually technically possible).
Re:A Message to Our Customers by cmurf on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @02:23PM (#11120460)
Open source doesn't preclude securing the boot chain. TianoCore implements UEFI Secure Boot, and it's BSD licensed. I think the bigger issue is the (unreasonably) low trust in things like secure elements and TPMs in open source, but that needs to change, and is rapidly off topic.

More on topic is whether Apple or even Google get out from under this if their on disk encryption mechanism is open source. If everyone owns e.g. LUKS (in a sense no one company owns/controls it) then can any one company be burdened by a court to effectively break everyone else's software by being told to create a backdoor?

Re:A Message to Our Customers by jameshart on Thursday February 18, 2016 @08:06AM (#11125423)
In that case the FBI don't get a warrant and compel a company to comply, they put out an RFP and pay a contract company to comply.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by makecheck on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:49AM (#11117789)
It may be that only the 5C or older devices have the ability to push a custom OS update to a locked device.

The real problem is that you don’t want to set any precedent at all. Once it’s possible to do something for the 5C, weasel words can be introduced to make claims like “well: now you must maintain the current level of access by law enforcement”. Next thing you know, that excuse can be used to interfere with all future hardware designs.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by MCRed on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:45AM (#11118126)
And my understanding is that everything after the 5C is less vulnerable to even this attack (Which itself may not be possible, even with a firmware update.)
Re:A Message to Our Customers by efaref on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:32AM (#11118468)
From what I heard later revisions won't accept a firmware update without either providing the passcode, or erasing the private key.

Arguably, the fact that the 5C accepts a firmware update without the passcode is a security vulnerability and ought to be patched.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by leonatan on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:42AM (#11119083)
The hardware required for enforcing this is not found on 5C or older devices.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by ascorbic on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:39AM (#11116888)
This isn't the case with the newer devices though, where the delays and key destruction are enforced in hardware, and tampering would destroy the key.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by blazespin on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:20AM (#11118871)
It's not just PR. It's actually really hurting their company. Weaker security means less data can be stored on the iPhone which means less need for it, which means fewer sales.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by digler999 on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @12:01PM (#11119256)
Thank you for answering one of my questions: "Why does a multi-billion-dollar company give one lick about personal freedom ?".

Companies exist to make money, not to protect our rights. It even crossed my mind that the possibility that NSA et. al. rooted these devices long ago, and that this whole "debate" is just a staged thing to make it appear as though we had any privacy and feigned adherence to the democratic process.

But your point that, as a matter of policy, many organizations will simply not use the product if they know it has backdoors, relates it back to their capitalist motivation and makes any conspiracy less likely.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by Fomite on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @02:40PM (#11120620)
Apple is also looking to foster growth in foreign markets. That's likely going to take a hit if the U.S. Government has special access to the phone.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by obelisk_ on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @04:53PM (#11121742)
Same here. I find this doubly reassuring.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by Nutmog on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @06:35PM (#11122470)
I thought the same thing when I read it. If Apple can do this, then it's already a backdoor, and all the publicity of "Even Apple can't hack your phone" was false. But it turns out this is an older 5C, not the new 5S and up. So those old phones were effectively backdoored.

I agree that Tim Cook has spun it as if it's not a backdoor when clearly it is. Still quite a hard-to-use one though. It seems like they need the physical phone and maybe Apple's private key for signing updates.

The idea that the act of writing software makes it insecure is silly though. The security doesn't come from no-one having made the appropriate changes to iOS. If it was, that would be security through obscurity and any motivated hacker or the FBI could modify iOS themselves. It must be about signing the update so that it can actually be installed.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by eric_h on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:07AM (#11118761)
I found this article about this [1] to be rather enlightening.

1) http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...

Re:A Message to Our Customers by intrasight on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @10:58AM (#11118684)
I'm afraid that I have to agree with you here. But Apple (and the FBI) recognize that this is the first salvo in a battle that will rage for MANY years. These early skirmishes could dis-proportionally affect the outcome - hence the ensuing PR battle.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by hardlianotion on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:34AM (#11116867)
This is not apparent from the article. Where could I find out about this ability?
Re:A Message to Our Customers by forgotpwtomain on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:52AM (#11116939)
If such an ability doesn't exist than how does this potential threat follow?

(article) > But that’s simply not true. Once created, the technique could be used over and over again, on any number of devices.

I am also missing a key part of the technical details involved in this this situation.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by niersi on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @05:47AM (#11116923)
I'd also like to point out that Apple has a record of not practicing cautiously to security exposure, like _the inclusion of CNNIC root certificate despite the public exposure of security breach_.

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/15/04/09/1531237/apple-leave...

Re:A Message to Our Customers by sametmax on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @08:58AM (#11117844)
Exactly. Plus, all backups of the iphones on icloud are already unencrypted, so half of the phones are already indirectly unlocked.

EDIT: backups are encrypted, but apple have the keys. See below.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by kimolas on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:00AM (#11117858)
iCloud backups are 100% encrypted. Only some iTunes backups are not, and only if the option to use encryption to protect the backup is not selected.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by sametmax on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @09:05AM (#11117883)
They are, but apple have the keys : https://thehackernews.com/2016/01/apple-icloud-imessages.htm...

So basically, they could be in clear text, it's pretty much the same.

Re:A Message to Our Customers by niij on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:09AM (#11118780)
Please see this link[1], Apple explains exactly how keys are stored in their datacenters (Hint: it is not in clear text). They use HSM's which destroy the user's key after 10 failed attempts.

[1]: https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

Re:A Message to Our Customers by snuxoll on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @11:42AM (#11119081)
This is only for Keychain escrow, device backups are not protected by HSM's.
Re:A Message to Our Customers by taneq on Wednesday February 17, 2016 @06:11AM (#11117008)
>The fact that they can push weak OS updates to a locked phone is the backdoor.

This times nine hundred and eleven thousand.