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Re:Why the calorie is broken by Someone1234 on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @10:18AM (#10980420)
Calories definitely aren't accurate but they're "accurate enough." Just as different foods likely result in more human fat development per calorie than others (see bleeding edge research), but ultimately none of that is hugely important because by cutting all calories you're likely cutting the "bad" kind too (namely sugars and complex carbohydrates). Counting sugars and those foods that easily metabolise into sugars is just as effective as actual calorie counting for weight loss.

One key thing to remember is: You cannot outrun a bad diet.

Meaning it isn't realistic to achieve substantial weight loss through exercise. Thirty minutes of jogging could be undone by one extra chocolate bar, a Big Mac, or a soda. If you already have control over your diet exercise can HELP with weight loss goals (e.g. extra pound of body weight a week) but a lot of people assume they can run off 20-30-40 pounds of excess body weight which is just totally unrealistic.

Base metabolic rate is the primary means of weight loss. As simplistic as this sounds, the goal remains to consume less than you burn through BMR, and the latest research on calorie's inherent inadequacies haven't yet changed that.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by CydeWeys on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @10:56AM (#10980691)
Another thing I'd like to point out is that, as long as your overall diet is off by a constant factor, all you have to do to lose weight is calibrating your diet. Think of a feedback loop between how many calories you're eating and what your weight is. If you're not losing weight, then cut the number of calories you're eating more! It doesn't matter what the actual numbers are of how many you think you're burning versus how many you're losing; all that matters is results. If you're not getting those results, reduce intake further. Think of it as solving for an unknown constant factor on calorie account through experimentation with measurement.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by philh on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:37AM (#10980980)
My understanding is that for some people, I'm not sure what fraction, "just eat less" basically means "just be perpetually hungry".

I'd rather be overweight than perpetually hungry.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by mamon on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:49AM (#10981076)
As a person who is currently in process of loosing weight through diet I can say that eating less calories doesn't mean feeling hungry. There are plenty of foods that are high volume and low calorie at the same time: salads, fruits, groats, whole bread and cereals. Also, the funny thing is that foods that appear high calories, like meat, are not inherently like that. Meat is pretty low in calories until you start to fry it.

EDIT: I wrote my comment in hurry, so I will now take some time to clarify my point.

Feeling hungry comes from the fact that eating foods rich in sugar and fat puts your insulin levels at a roller coaster, going up and down like crazy. With balanced diet, after initial few days of adjustment your insulin level stabilize making hunger go away.

Also, whole foods, vegetables, grains contain a lot of fiber, which stacks up in your bowels making you even likely to feel hungry.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by philh on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:57AM (#10981136)
> As a person who is currently in process of loosing weight through diet I can say that eating less calories doesn't mean feeling hungry.

No you can't. You can say that eating fewer calories doesn't mean feeling hungry for you. Apparently you're not in the fraction I was talking about. Good for you.

I also note that you're talking about changing your diet, while the post I was replying to specifically said you didn't have to do that.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by maxerickson on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @12:56PM (#10981607)
while the post I was replying to specifically said you didn't have to do that.

I read that post as saying that losing weight does require a change in diet. Reducing calories is a significant change to make.

I think one of the easiest ways to reduce calories is to change the composition of the diet, there are a lot of calorie dense foods that provide little nutrition and not much satiety. Eliminating (or simply reducing) them can be an easier way to shift calorie consumption in the right direction.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by philh on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @01:07PM (#10981696)
I read that post as "your diet has the right proportions of things, just too much of them? Great, just eat less of your existing diet. Still not losing weight? Eat even less!"

I agree with you that changing your diet seems like generally a much better idea.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by beachstartup on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @01:29PM (#10981880)
yes, it's a much better idea. i've lost 30 pounds in the last 6 months by cleaning up my diet and working out.

at the end of the day, losing weight is work. there's no way around it. work is generally slightly uncomfortable, and if you're not at least a little bit willing to endure that, you aren't going to see results. i treat gym time and kitchen time like office time. it's just work i have to do. it's not a big deal. after i get this work done, i can relax and chill out and do something mindless.

and really, in the end it's an individual decision. you have to decide, do i give a shit about this? you don't have to give a shit about it. if you don't, that's fine. if you do, then get to work.

maybe in 20 years things will be different, but that's how it is now.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by tdkl on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:46AM (#10981057)
What's hungry ?

After being on intermittent fasting 16/8 for half a year the notion of being "hungry" amuses me. Now being hungry means not eating for 24h or more. Sadly some think that if their stomach is a bit empthy, they have to eat. Or they need to eat because the device on the wall/hand/in the pocket displays a certain number which indicates food time, then wonder why they're fat.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by Someone1234 on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @01:33PM (#10981922)
Just curious, what does 16/8 intermittent fasting mean? Doesn't everyone do intermittent fasting through sleep for 8 or more hours of a day?
Re:Why the calorie is broken by tdkl on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @01:51PM (#10982079)
This post explained it to me, I tried it out for a month and made be a believer : http://antranik.org/intermittent-fasting/

But you're right, most of the 16 hour fast happens while you sleep.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by DanBC on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @01:44PM (#10982009)
"eat fewer calories" is nothing like "eat less food".
Re:Why the calorie is broken by adajos on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:20AM (#10980866)
Excellent point. And this calibrating is a key point as you lose weight--once you drop a significant amount you've got to revise your calorie intake down a commensurate amount.

Estimation is good enough as long as you monitor your progress and tweak it if it's not getting you results.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by finkin1 on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @10:43AM (#10980607)
You expressed the sentiment I came here to share beautifully - thank you. I think a lot of people fail to understand that exercise isn't that important when trying to lose weight.

Another issue I think is extremely pervasive is moral licensing: apparently, doing something that helps to strengthen our positive self-image also makes us less worried about the consequences of bad behavior, and therefore more likely to make bad choices. This can translate to internal conversations like, "I did good by exercising today, I guess I'll order dessert." I think this error in thinking causes serious problems for a lot of people. There are no "good" or "bad" actions - only actions that add or detract from whatever the goal is.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by tdkl on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:43AM (#10981025)
> One key thing to remember is: You cannot outrun a bad diet.

I'll also add that you can't undo a bad diet over x years in much less time.

Obese people are shocked that changing the course and loosing fat takes time. Of course, they didn't also get obese in a year.

When you're getting fatter and fatter you don't even register couple extra kilograms, compared to if you have a healthy habit of measuring weight/lean body mass/body fat weekly (this is crucial, because measuring JUST weight is just half-assing yourself) and staying in shape. One who's doing that will notice the weight change even without measuring, your more attune to your body and you "know". It's ironic that more better you're in shape, easier it is to stay in good shape, but hey that's how law of fittest works.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by mistermann on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @07:21PM (#10984757)
> I'll also add that you can't undo a bad diet over x years in much less time.

You can certainly lose massive amounts of weight in a relatively (compared to how long it took to put on) short period of time.

https://www.reddit.com/r/progresspics/top/

Re:Why the calorie is broken by adajos on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:17AM (#10980846)
Exactly right. It's all about the BMR and while calorie-counting alone won't get you ideal nutrition it is absolutely enough to control weight.

I counted my calories with MyFitnessPal last spring and dropped 25 pounds. Consistent, long-term caloric deficit is the answer, except no substitutes.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by roel_v on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:29AM (#10980934)
*accept
Re:Why the calorie is broken by dspillett on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:43AM (#10981026)
> different foods likely result in more human fat development per calorie than others (see bleeding edge research)

It isn't just varying the food that makes the difference: there is variation by individual as to how certain foods affect the body. There is evidence that it can vary somewhat not just by age and gender, but the results are noisy enough within tightly controlled test groups that it varies per individual. Where there isn't an obvious cause for this such as diabetes, differences in gut microbiome are suspected to be key.

Everything you said is still correct of course. This variation just adds wrinkle to it, but a small enough one that "calories in" against "calories out" is accurate enough for the vast majority of the population (i.e. those without significant medical issues).

If you are aware of this there is nothing wrong with exercising more so you can eat more, just be careful not to bias your diet by making the extra all "bad food" or you risk being the right weight but unhealthy in a number of other ways. These days I run for three reasons (roughly in order):

* Cardiovascular fitness. It is nice to feel healthier than old me ever did.

* Stress. A 30 minutes jogging with good music or a podcast and/or around some nice scenery is a great way to break away from hassle long enough to relax so you can deal with it better when you get back (burning 250 calories while you are doing it is almost a "freebie"). Don't speed run while stressed though, you'll not concentrate and damage yourself via putting your feet in the wrong places, bad posture, or literally running into things.

* Helping to get rid of the extra I've put on if I had a bit of a food bender last week (over the festive week for example) a little faster then I otherwise would.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by philh on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @12:27PM (#10981380)
Something which is probably not true, but is probably not 100% false, and is in line with what you're saying: "These 5 Genes Predict What Kind of Diet and Exercise is Best For Your Body". http://rockstarresearch.com/these-5-genes-predict-what-kind-...

Supposedly, some people lose weight on low-fat diets, and some on low-carb diets. A few can lose weight on either. And most people need high-intensity exercise to lose weight, while a few only need low-intensity.

(I have both forms of genetic privilege, and have never had to worry about my weight.)

I'm also bullish on microbiome transplant for weight loss.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by dspillett on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @12:33PM (#10981429)
The articles I've seen don't talk about transplants to help people change their weight. Their thrust was more geared towards explaining (or disproving the significance of) measured differences, and detecting differences doctors can recommend the most likely most efficient diet for people with health problems who are currently having trouble shifting weight.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by basch on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @12:06PM (#10981218)
that doesnt really refute anything from the article, except maybe the title
[dead]
Re:Why the calorie is broken by humanrebar on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:12AM (#10980802)
> But since he's used to eating like a pig, it's not so easy. And I'm not saying this to mock him, it's a fact of how his body has adapted to eating lots of calories.

If you don't want to mock people, consider not comparing them to barnyard animals.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by QSIITurbo on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:41AM (#10981012)
I still think it's a good metaphor: they eat constantly while still eating regular meals that must be huge. Like probably a lunch and a pizza or two burgers plus lost of soda or alcohol per day. I'd say 3000 kcal easily per day assuming they do at least _something_ (and that's not much) to add to their basal metabolic rate. They are completely in a feeding mode that is required just to upkeep the amount of fat tissue in their bodies. If that doesn't remind you of a barnyard animal, I don't know what does.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by tallanvor on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @10:54AM (#10980674)
>One key thing to remember is: You cannot outrun a bad diet.

That's not really true. When I ran 150km/week, I didn't have to worry much about what I ate. A couple of years after having some surgery, I'm only managing about 50km/week, and I have to be much more careful.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by drcross on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:00AM (#10980731)
You're using a veiled humblebrag to disprove a generally correct statement. 150 kilometers per weeks puts you directly into the top 1% of the population, meaning you are a complete outlier, as if you didnt know this.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by tallanvor on Thursday January 28, 2016 @03:34AM (#10987101)
No, it was citing personal experience. I could just as easily cited Michael Phelps' diet when he was training, but that's definitely not something most people can relate to.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by emcq on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @12:35PM (#10981443)
I think what is being highlighted here is the rather strong statement "you cannot outrun a bad diet" followed by "it isn't realistic to achieve substantial weight loss through exercise" and "base metabolic rate is the primary means of weight loss". It suggests that exercise is not important to weight loss. Let me try to describe why this is a bit misleading even for the 99-95% of the population who werent student athletes in college.

What the grandparent's post is highlighting is the physics of this system is that the difference in weight is proportional to calories in - calories out. It's important for people to reduce calories in by modifying their diet. No one is disagreeing with this. However individuals committed to reducing weight can put in some time to increasing calories out (often by cardio activities such as jogging/running/cycling/swimming).

It just doesnt follow to say "you cannot outrun a bad diet" followed by "the base metabolic rate is the primary means of weight loss". There is tons of evidence that exercise is exactly what increases your base metabolic rate! Here is just one study:

"Resting metabolic rate (RMR) is the largest component of the daily energy budget in most human societies and, therefore, any increases in RMR in response to exercise interventions are potentially of great importance" [0]

If RMR is the most important thing to reducing weight, exercise is the most straightforward way to improve RMR and reducing weight. But I wont make this reductionist claim; clearly diet is also important.

Exercise can be very helpful in reducing weight; it's simple physics of increasing calories out. My most successful friend losing weight changed both his diet and increased exercising to about an hour a day. He not only shredded 30-40 pounds, but gained from the additional benefits of higher resting metabolic rate, increased cardio health benefits, reduced stress, and felt like he had more energy with fewer coffees. The quick weight loss he felt meant he didn't have to have a yearlong slog waiting to see results, making the process all the more rewarding which significantly helps for some people's psychology. Sure it sucked in the beginning, but his life was unbalanced and he committed to making big changes.

It's almost cheating to exercise with improved diets; imagine if you were keto eating salads and still able to remove "chocolate bar debt" from the past by 30 minutes to an hour of activity a day followed by increased RMR for the next 24 hours.

Bad diets are bad. Complemented with exercise you can improve your metabolic rate which will give you long term weight loss and health benefits.

[0] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14692598

Re:Why the calorie is broken by wavefunction on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:12AM (#10980805)
I don't see what's so crazy about that claim, it's 13 miles a day assuming the poster is running every day. I walk that much on the weekends when I have the time with my dog.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by mapt on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:30AM (#10980938)
Are you sure you know how long a mile is?

At an average walking speed of 2.8mph, that's 4.6 hours of walking. The average American adult walks around 2.5 miles per day, mostly indoors trips between rooms. The American knowledge-worker or automobile-dependent suburbanite will tend to have a lower average.

Jogging / long-distance-running tends to be about twice that fast, or 2.3 hours of activity. Per day. Ten percent of their lives, running. Most people don't come anywhere close.

Re:Why the calorie is broken by fredophile on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @03:34PM (#10983041)
That's a half marathon every day. Not only is that far more time than most people could spend it's also far more activity than most people could do without injuring themselves. That kind of distance takes years to build up to safely.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by _Wintermute on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:12AM (#10980801)
The point is you can outrun a bad diet. Anyone who puts serious miles/time into an endurance sport knows this. Though as a weight loss strategy it's definitely not ideal.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by elbigbad on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:18AM (#10980856)
Well, the comment "you cannot outrun a bad diet" is clearly referencing the bottom 95% of the population in this case, especially when followed by referencing "thirty minutes of jogging." Clearly exercise burns calories so it follows that there is some amount of exercise that will allow a person to "outrun a bad diet," so pointing out some edge case isn't helpful or instructive.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by mikeash on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:45AM (#10981049)
And then we wonder why even the simplest statements in advertising need a paragraph of fine print asterisked onto them....
Re:Why the calorie is broken by Lawtonfogle on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:45AM (#10981045)
So the statement should be 'it is easier to not eat a bad diet than to out run one for most people, including those who over eat for more complicated reason than hunger'. But you lose the sound bite quality. It is like pointing out the grammatical mistake in a punchline.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by tdkl on Wednesday January 27, 2016 @11:53AM (#10981106)
That's actually a big waste of time instead of just keeping eye on calorie intake. I mean if you enjoy running, by all means go nuts. But substituting poor nutrition by hours of running is plain dumb.
Re:Why the calorie is broken by tallanvor on Thursday January 28, 2016 @03:31AM (#10987087)
It depends on the person. For me, running (even though I don't enjoy it) was easier to do than having to be careful about what I eat.