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Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:22PM (#10859679)
I feel compelled to write about race issues because I am a person of color. The issues directly impact my life. But I'm afraid because readers might be pissed off enough to get me fired. :/
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by stuxnet79 on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:12PM (#10860389)
Colored person here as well. I'd advise you to discuss these matters under an assumed name. Discussing them on a public forum (such as a company blog) is generally a bad idea (if you want to keep your job). Of course you can go full militant but you have to understand the risks. Personally, I need to pay the bills right now, but as soon as I accumulate some F* U money, it's on :)
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:28PM (#10860506)
I can pay off my mortgage in 5 years. After that, it's on! :)
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by erichmond on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:36PM (#10859775)
Sadly, if you live in the states, you are likely correct to feel that way. I haven't had many racial incidents in the tech workplace, but I have had enough to understand that it definitely could be held against you in the long term.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @01:47PM (#10859834)
I wrote a few sentences about gender equality at my last job for the company blog. Some people didn't like it so they escalated it to the CTO without contacting me. As a result, the editor who approved my piece was super stressed and apologetic. She quit a few months later. I wasn't surprised.

They wanted me to add the word "more" to the title of the second point. Which makes sense, but that's literally a one minute conversation. My boss was like "Sorry for going behind your back. I didn't realize you were going to find out."

https://www.redfin.com/blog/2014/10/why-i-work-at-redfin-kev...

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by delecti on Thursday January 07, 2016 @02:25PM (#10860084)
> Sorry for going behind your back. I didn't realize you were going to find out

So really "Sorry you found out I went behind your back".

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @02:42PM (#10860192)
To be fair, I understand where they are coming from. It's an reaction all marginalized groups share. My version is when white authors write about PoC issues. But I voice my complaints by tweeting at them. ;)
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by cryoshon on Thursday January 07, 2016 @04:04PM (#10860739)
I also feel compelled to write about race issues. I don't write about them, though-- the issue is too poisoned to even approach if you aren't the correct race. I churn quietly instead.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by erikpukinskis on Thursday January 07, 2016 @08:00PM (#10862150)
There is no correct race, you just need to do your homework. Plenty of white people write about race. You just have to have a sound argument, based in actual study of race. If you're just going to regurgitate ancient stereotypes then yeah, people will criticize you. If you are unable to have a conversation about your views with a person of another race you probably haven't done enough homework yet.

If you don't want to take the time to do that, that's fine. But don't churn. And don't blame other people.

I'm a white male and I feel totally confident expressing my opinions on race and gender, including opinions that go contrary to mainstream feminist and anti-racist positions. You might be surprised to learn that women and people of color are not unified in their beliefs about race and sex.

But that's only because I've taken the time to listen very carefully to criticism, to listen particularly carefully and gently when someone is telling me something that seems wrong, and do my own research. It's not just a matter of watching the world go by and having an opinion.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by stuxnet79 on Friday January 08, 2016 @08:41AM (#10864720)
The only response I've read that makes sense. I'm not anti-white people, I'm anti-"white supremacy" and institutional racism. I have plenty of white friends who know what the deal is, that's why I'm friends with them. For the rest, no amount of sophistication or refinement is going to mask your profound ignorance on the topic.

This is why there's a lot of avoidance of the topic. Frankly most people don't know what they are talking about. I frequent a forum that's filled with "PoC" and we have a lot of arguments in our ranks too.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by ddingus on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:24PM (#10860477)
And that sucks. We need you to share your experiences. We need to feel your struggles and understand them well enough to identify with them, and really internalize, "what if that were me?"

When that happens, most of us respond with empathy and because we understand, support and activism to make it better and have one another's backs.

Progress happens, and things get better. I believe in all of that deeply. I've paid hard to stand for it too. More than once.

Some of us respond with rage, hate, and all manner of emotions, and that sucks. It's not like any of us actually picks these things, so how does it make any real sense to be held to account for them? (Color, gender, gay, etc...)

It is, like you say, a contact sport with very real implications for us all. To me, that contact is good. It helps to understand others and it can help to keep the worst in check for fear of consequences too.

But there is a lot of difficulty in that quiet response one just can't quite pin down... fired one day, for example.

I'm an ordinary white guy, and I've had this sort of thing happen when I've gone to bat for someone who needed it.

Making things better is expensive in this way, and I'm not entirely sure we can avoid it. We may blunt it some, but people remain exposed all the same.

I understand your fear. It has a real basis and all of us must weigh these things. At some points in life, maybe we can take the hit. At others, it may cost too much.

I don't have answers, other than to say there are a lot of us who get it.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by stuxnet79 on Friday January 08, 2016 @08:49AM (#10864757)
Thanks for this. It is indeed very difficult for most people to identify with and internalize the struggles of those stuck in the margins of society. It takes concerted effort and is not something that comes easily to most people. That's why discussions are important.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by ddingus on Friday January 08, 2016 @10:51AM (#10865688)
Yeah. A lot of people don't want to either. Going there can often lead to questions about the self and character and other things... I went through that. Small town ignorance, married a wonderful woman who some how saw better in me, and a lot of introspection on car rides home to shake it.

Doing that hurts and it's scary, but it also rewards one with security and empathy needed to understand just how completely unacceptable bigotry, racism, etc... really are too.

The triggers for that so very often happen by another person, a target, sharing.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by puredemo on Thursday January 07, 2016 @02:39PM (#10860171)
Excuse my ignorance but do Asians "count" as people of color? I thought that usually referred to Latinos and African Americans?

I know that university admissions PoC don't include Asians, in fact most admissions standards are stacked against them.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @02:56PM (#10860277)
Yes, I am a person of color. The dictionary definition of people of color is any non whites.

Edit: There is a long explanation of why Asians are sometimes excluded. The short answer is racism against Asians.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by merpnderp on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:19PM (#10860435)
Asians haven't faced horrible racism in the US? Asians have and still do face racism in the states.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by puredemo on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:05PM (#10860339)
It sounds like you're saying it's fine to be racist against whites, but offensive to do the same thing to your personal "in-group." Little ironic, lol.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by delecti on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:30PM (#10860524)
Often, when people are referring to racism, they're referring specifically to Institutional racism. As a general rule (because everything is naturally full of gray areas) it's considered to be impossible for whites to experience institutional racism in countries where we're the majority. So while a PoC could certainly be bigoted against whites, it wouldn't be accurate to say that they're inflicting institutional racism on them.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by yummyfajitas on Thursday January 07, 2016 @09:04PM (#10862404)
Institutional racism is defined (according to the wikipedia article you link to) as unequal statistical outcomes and unequal statistical treatment (e.g. group X being more likely to live in poor neighborhoods), sliced by race.

White people can certainly experience this in countries where they are the majority. As an example taken directly from the wikipedia article, white people significantly underperform Asians on standardized tests, they are more likely to live in poor neighborhoods, have worse health, and are disproportionately likely to be "targeted" by police (also they commit less crime).

Can you cite any piece of evidence in favor of institutional racism by whites against blacks that doesn't also support institutional racism by asians against whites?

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by 13thLetter on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:07PM (#10861528)
" As a general rule (because everything is naturally full of gray areas) it's considered to be impossible for whites to experience institutional racism in countries where we're the majority."

Sorry, what? Considered by whom? Because we should have a word with these people about how unimaginative they are.

For one thing, there are plenty of ways a member of group X could experience institutional racism in an X-majority country. Perhaps they live in a Y-dominated region of the country, or work for a Y-owned company, or group Y has more political/economic/cultural power in society despite being a minority, or they work for an organization whose policy is to hire and promote Y preferentially.

More generally, I don't see the purpose of desperately insisting that institutional racism can never affect group X. To say that group X can be harmed certainly doesn't mean that group Y isn't harmed more. It's a weird and pointless linguistic game that harms the purpose of achieving equality of opportunity by gratuitously driving away allies.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by delecti on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:55PM (#10861812)
I know it's lazy to just link to a Wikipedia article on the subject, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm too lazy to address all the things in your post when you can do your own research.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

The fact is, the occasional inconvenience on whites in America (as a convenient example) from occasional pockets of bigoted blacks is fundamentally different from the regular impact on blacks from the institutionalized racist tendencies in society.

[dead]
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by dang on Friday January 08, 2016 @02:04AM (#10863405)
Please don't post personally abrasive comments here.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by Analemma_ on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:18PM (#10860431)
You're doing the exact thing that WalterBright complained about above (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10859674). Of course that is not what the poster meant.
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:20PM (#10860454)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

He thinks I'm racist for quoting wikipedia. I've met people like him at work. Overly sensitive people is exactly why I don't want to write about race issues.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by puredemo on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:25PM (#10860480)
>He thinks I'm racist for quoting wikipedia.

I mean, I think you buy into and identify with a concept that is explicitly, by definition anti-white..

Is that not racist?

--

>This is exactly why I don't want to write about race issues.

Because everyone needs to agree with you about them 100%?

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:32PM (#10860536)
I can't be racist because my girlfriend is white. :P
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by puredemo on Thursday January 07, 2016 @03:30PM (#10860523)
If I wanted to take it super literally, I'd ask why Pink people aren't considered "People of Color." ;)
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by geofft on Thursday January 07, 2016 @06:16PM (#10861571)
The usual term I hear in university admissions contexts is "underrepresented minorities," which is generally taken to not include Asians.

There are contexts where Asians are underrepresented; political representation comes to mind. In those places "people of color" makes more sense.

Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by outis on Thursday January 07, 2016 @09:16PM (#10862458)
You're being dishonest here. Your choice of words paints a certain picture, but we all know what kind of people get people fired for their controversial opinions, and they wouldn't go after a self-described poc for talking about race. The example you give further down (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10859834) shows that you know how it works in practice, which is why I'm saying "dishonest" rather than "confused".
Re:The internet has made defensive writers of us all by kelukelugames on Thursday January 07, 2016 @09:43PM (#10862578)
I have no idea what you are trying to say. I don't know what kind of people you mean. I don't know what you think I know what works in practice.