https://goo.gl/maps/UuPPKQK5MoF2
https://goo.gl/maps/KunFSxxRFWA2
https://goo.gl/maps/yg1NH6ZMkFJ2
https://goo.gl/maps/xVi2n8muHV32
https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92
https://goo.gl/maps/ssGZRAdiQak (memorial garden?)
https://goo.gl/maps/B2waNiVfeut
https://goo.gl/maps/8Wx2gQ6z8up
https://goo.gl/maps/nAY5Kb73PkM2
https://goo.gl/maps/kTqzqGXQqmF2
https://goo.gl/maps/xWkvXRdACWR2
As a Swede, I guess I didn't really realize how bad things really got in parts of the US. The last 50 years is just one crisis after another for this place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint%2C_Michigan#History
To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses. It's all too easy to imagine the hopes and dreams that didn't play out they way they should have.
I lived 2 hours away from there in Central Michigan from end of 2008 - 2010. One of the sadder experiences I had was, one day while out on my daily walk around the neighborhood, there were a mass of people standing around one of the houses. I walked up to see what was happening, and the entire house and all of its contents had been abandoned without packing; little kids toys scattered on the floor where they played, wheel borrows, brooms hanging in the garage, plates on the kitchen shelves -- all being auctioned off one after another. They were literally taking them out of the cupboards and off the floor and an auctioneer (presumably hired by the mortgage owning bank) went down the sad road of dispensing of everything to anyone who wanted it.
And actually there were three auctioneers -- front yard, back yard, and inside, gradually dismantling an entire family's life for anyone to see, and participate in.
I think pensions end up being a big factor. A city of 100,000 people is going to have some trouble keeping up the payments owed by the former city of 200,000. I guess as a society we need to remember to be really careful about promising compensation and then finding funds for it later (pensions were also a big factor in bankrupting GM and Chrysler).
I've been able to travel into Detroit a few times sense moving to Ann arbor and the difference is truly shocking. Even more so when you consider the distance between the places (about 45 minute drive). I highly recommend checking out Detroit in person if you get the opportunity, pictures just simply do the place justice.
The west side of the state is nice, but it doesnt really compare to the larger (and wealthier) markets on the East side of the state:
Birmingham, Bloomfield hills, Troy, Ann Arbor, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Grosse pointe, etc.
The far more obvious dichotomy is Oakland county vs Wayne county.
Wayne county(county where Detroit is located):
>About 18.6% of families and 23.7% of the population were below the poverty line
Oakland county (county just north of Wayne):
>About 3.80% of families and 5.50% of the population were below the poverty line
Kent county (grand rapids location):
>8.90% of the population and 6.30% of families were below the poverty line.
Source: lived in Michigan 22 years
I'm often surprised by the ways businesses behave. I was in northern MA last month at a tech company that had recently built a new office building. Not 5 miles away was the town center, which was once a manufacturing hub. In town there were a couple old brick textile factories that were absolutely beautiful old buildings sitting vacant. Those building seem like the exact thing i've seen a couple startups trying to simulate in an office building (hard wood floors, retro lamps, etc with modern open floor plan). Running a medium sized tech company out of a 200 year old textile factory says something, but no one apparently wants to say it. Sure there would be some remodeling expense putting in power/etc but I can't imagine its a huge fraction more than long term rental/ownership/maint of the crap buildings being thrown up that start to fall apart after 10 years.
However, as someone else said, you don't renovate these kind of properties because it's cheaper than building a generic business park. You do it because you're willing to spend extra for something with history and character.
Look at the last sale price of this building, $535.00 five hundred!!
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-...
Sale prices obscure some of the more expensive parts of a sale -- leins on the title and back taxes. Sometimes you do get a property for cheap, but always do your due diligence.
Here's another example:
http://www.thecmaninn.com/claremont/about-us/history.aspx
Here's an older paper from the state of RI:
http://www.planning.ri.gov/documents/tp/TP%20150.pdf
So one note from that paper: northern RI alone had 10mil sq ft of vacant mill building space.
That's a lot. It will take a lot of rebuilding to come close to reclaiming all the space in those old buildings.
Also, those old buildings didn't always take into account things like, say, HVAC efficiency. That kind of retrofitting takes money.
Is this a project you'd still be interested in?
Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.
The sights in these photos that you (and I, who grew up in Florida) think are pretty common, are quite rare in Sweden. That is, it's rare to find houses with boarded up windows, or missing part of its siding, or burnt down and in a state of decay. Suburban areas are almost all immaculate, with well kept lawns, and solid construction.
Rare, but not impossible. Here's one https://www.google.com/maps/@59.0577422,12.4528682,3a,37.5y,... . Just down the street is the old market and gas station https://www.google.com/maps/@59.0578664,12.4544937,3a,37.5y,... .
I can gave a hand-waving explanation. This picture is from Edsleskog, a town that used to be more of a real town. Cars didn't become common in Swede until the 1960 or so. (Sweden was a relatively poor country, and I have a Swedish book from the 1950s where two children visit the US and are astonished that a family might have two cars, when a family in Sweden might have a moped.)
But once cars became common, people preferred to drive the 15 minutes to get to the bigger, nearby city of Åmål for shopping and other errands, and for work. Some of the older building are now no longer useful. Since that area has had the population growth that the cities have had, older places are left to decay, rather than be replaced with something more useful.
You're right, I'm just not used to seeing things like this I guess.
For the Americans who have not traveled abroad, countries in northern Europe, Canada/Australia generally do not have the level of poverty some parts of US suffers.
The average after government transfer income of the bottom quintile of households in the US is ~$25,000, which is slightly more than the after government transfers to the bottom quintile of households in the UK. Meanwhile the middle quintile of income earners in the UK is about $20,000 short of the middle US quintile.
It's absolutely true that many of the indigenous reserves here are a living tragedy... in fact, like Australia, we have a long and shameful history with respect to our indigenous population, a history that we're still writing today (recently the CBC had to shut down comments on stories about indigenous issues due the quantity of hateful comments they attract).
That said, small town Canada can absolutely suffer as bad as anywhere in the US (just like America's coal and steel towns, it's not unusual for small towns to be dependent on a single industry, and if that industry suffers the town suffers...).
However, we don't tend to have the same level of urban blight and decay as you see in some American cities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reserves_in_Can...
Most of those have towns in them.
> However, we don't tend to have the same level of urban blight and decay as you see in some American cities.
There are plenty of run-down areas and derelict industrial objects in and around Montreal. It is true you cannot compare Montreal to select cities like Detroit or Newark, but that is because the urban blight there is exclusively a product of systemic racism against blacks in the United States. This is why it makes more sense to compare Detroit to Native towns. Indigenous people in Canada face blatant and open discrimination today that is comparable to what blacks face in the United States.
https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=detroit+indus...
Walk a block over to Grosse Point: $89,492 93% white (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Pointe,_Michigan)
Royal Oak: $52,252 90% white (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Oak,_Michigan)
Livonia: $68,973 92% white (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2649000.html)
There are just huge differences in property styles in different parts of the US, and between urban and rural properties.
The latter more or less equals the difference in GDP, correcting for purchasing power (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...)
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/04/im_not_the_one_you_sh...
The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...
The same dynamics can be seen with companies that operate on a negative cash flow basis and who fail to properly buffer a period of improved revenue that later reverts to the mean -- short-term prosperity can mean long-term impovershment.
I was just trying to explain what aspects of the pictures could cause "a loss of words" for an unfamiliar viewer.
There is:
1) A burned down building (which has been in that state for some time)
2) Boarded up storefronts
3) Plants growing over the unused fences, which themselves are starting to fall over
4) The lots behind the fences look to have been empty for decades
5) Visibly aging concrete
6) Crumbling sidewalks with plants coming up between the tiles
7) at least 3 of the 5 vehicles are from no newer than ~1998
Combine that with the overcast weather, and the bleak color palette of the remaining buildings, and it looks pretty depressing. :(
Maybe it's not representative: maybe on a sunnier day, the greenery would make it look lush and liveable, but as it stands it's definitely an unfortunate looking Street View, that one...
I'm not sure how long the building has been in that state, but I would imagine less than a year from the vegetation, but that's hard to judge if it all dies in winter. Then again, vegetation usually grows very quickly in those areas. That said, small municipalities move slower, they have less leeway in the budget to deal with unforeseen circumstances.
A lot of what you're stated seems to indicate that you see the open areas here as a sign of neglect or failure. Often in rural areas, building are much more spread out unless they are are towards the town center. There's no reason to build next to someone if you can have a lot or two between you and them. As a city expands, these are naturally filled in as sparse building pushes farther out from the town center and some people don't want to be that far out.
As for the sidewalks and concrete, areas with wet winters that continually fluctuate between freezing and non-freezing temperatures are particularly bad on brick and concrete buildings. The continual expansion of the water when it turns into ice and back into water quickly destroys concrete in these areas. Michigan is known to be particularly bad.
In truth, looking down GlenWood Ave from that picture looks fairly pleasant to me. This could easily be a few hundred feet in either of the towns my parents are from in rural Wisconsin, and much of those towns looks fairly pleasant, if extremely spread out, to my eyes.
For comparison, here's another random spot I found by just choosing a place in google maps and zooming in[1]. Every town has some run-down areas if it's old enough, but having a run-down area doesn't necessarily mean the economy is dead (but I'm not disputing that the economy is likely bad, just that the picture is more indicative of an area than a situation).
1: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0188356,-83.6795166,3a,75y,1...
In some areas, work that needs to be done by the town or county may take a while. Sometimes that's the nature of living in a rural area.
I'm not blaming Flint (or any other town in the Rust Belt), just pointing out concrete items that could leave unfamiliar people "at a loss for words".
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/04/watch_as_f...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3051467/MASSIVE-fire...
Under the circumstances, this seems to support the notion of a dying city perhaps giving up.
It's priorities.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSB...
It doesn't help that the local government is sometimes even more incompetent than the Federal Government either. I mean, redirecting the entire city water-supply to a poisoned river? That's some grade A F---ed up right there.
In any case, America overall is a strong country, but the worst parts of America are equivalent to a 3rd-World nation.
There was a documentary on this (with mostly simulated desolation): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1433058/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2
> As a Swede
... part
That said, my understanding is that the area is brutally cold and wet, and that buildings and infrastructure there quickly goes to shit because of that unless it had regular thorough upkeep.
Not exactly truthful. Most "free trade" recent agreements (past ~30 years or so) come with some sort of TAA support [1][2].
Why is it the federal government's responsibility to do these things? These are implied powers which the states have responsibility for. The Constitution does not reserve any of these for the federal government.
You can't ignore human ego, denial, and the power of convention. All one-industry towns wane when their one industry either falls or moves. People complain, panic, and some even try to move to find better luck elsewhere.
Ultimately, the largest anchor tends to be housing/property, which in the US tends to be paid for by long term debt. When a town loses its economic engine, demand to move there drops to near zero and the housing values fall underwater at the same time when people need to leave. I fail to see why the federal government should be on the hook for something like this. It would be subsidizing failure in a large way.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Adjustment_Assistance
Because their cost imposed by federal internal and external policies adopted under the Congress' Commerce Clause powers (including when they are caused by decisions not to exercise Commerce Clause powers -- a decision not to act within granted power is itself an use of the power), and because while certain cities may the poster children for the problem, quite often when regional industries are effect, its not just one city in one state, but a whole state (or several) that suffer substantial net negative effects.
The commercial policy that Congress pursues which results in these harms is usually done on the premise that it is ultimately the best on balance for the nation as a whole, and that the harms some areas experience are more the compensated by the benefits experienced elsewhere in the country. Which may be true, on balance, but if it is, then taxing those that benefit to provide support to those that are harmed should be able to remediate the damage to those harmed while still leaving those who benefit ahead.
Based on what?
> So there are parts of the US comparable to all the parts of the EU -- rich countries and poor ones.
The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU, in every respect. You have those that are poor living blocks away from the wealthiest people in the world.
My own state of New Jersey is one of the most affluent, but also has one of the most dangerous cities in the whole country.
It's fundamentalist opposition to welfare and social programs and universal healthcare even when people are struggling and suffering can give that impression.
> The US is far more diverse and mixed than the EU
What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.
We have welfare and a multitude of social programs design to assist those who need help. You can walk into any emergency room in the country and receive whatever care you need even without insurance or payment on-hand. Mind you, the government provides insurance to the poor and elderly. It has been this way for a very long time.
A full 66% of our federal budget is devoted to exactly these types of programs. That's over 2 trillion dollars. Every year.
http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/budget-entitlement-pro...
Where are you getting your silly notions?
> What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.
I wasn't talking about the country-level. Read what I wrote.
The US is highly diverse on a street level. Rich live with the poor, side by side. This is not the case in Europe. In Europe, the classes are highly segregated.
In the US, there is a very real attempt at having diverse neighborhoods with people of different backgrounds living side by side. Can you point to the same in the EU? And you want to talk about equality?
While this is a benefit of sorts (you won't actually be allowed to die due to lack of funds), it's not like the work you receive is free. You'll end up paying it back to someone.
Where I live, for example, the county tends to pay off debt like this to the hospital for a significantly smaller portion of the cost. They will allow you to finance it for a very long time, but you will still pay for it. Until it's paid for, even if it takes a very long time. If the county decides not to help you (maybe, for example, you're not a taxpaying resident of the place you ended up going to the emergency room in) then the hospital will bill you for it. They might, after hounding you for a while, charge you only pennies on the dollar to pay it. Or they might be convinced to write it off - which they do occasionally, but only occasionally.
The only sure way to avoid paying debt accrued through emergency medical services is to have no assets.
We absolutely do not, and it is disingenuous to claim otherwise. Europe has vastly less wealth disparity, and many more social welfare programs that ensure a pretty high degree of social mobility. The United States doesn't hold a candle to most of Europe in this regard. And you know something infuriating? My tax rate is only 10% less where I live in the States than what it will be when I move to Sweden. Our taxes are high as hell and we get basically nothing for them. A nice weapons development program, and there's something to be said for that, and then the Social Security ponzi scheme. But nothing else. Sweden has a huge number of beneficial programs that actually help people when they need it.
And your one citation is from the Heritage Foundation.
How does the income disparity between Flint and San Francisco compare to the income disparity between Luxembourg and Bulgaria? Between Germany and Romania?
> My tax rate is only 10% less where I live in the States than what it will be when I move to Sweden.
No. The Swedish deduction is $2,690 - in the US it's between $6,300 and $12,600. Not to mention that our federal tax rates top out at about 2/3 of the maximum Swedish tax rate (sub-40% compared to 59.7%). Highest state sales tax is under 12% while Swedish VAT is up to 25%. Not to mention capital gains in Sweden is twice what it is in the US unless you make nearly half a million a year, in which case it's only 10 points higher (30% v. 15%/20%)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates
> And your one citation is from the Heritage Foundation.
I would say the source has little relevance if what it's saying is accurate (which it is).
Your experience is irrelevant if it directly contradicts facts and math. Until you supply some numbers I'm assuming you're including things that aren't actually taxes or the math is otherwise incorrect.
The state you're in matters a lot.[0] I have a 3% flat state income tax and 6% sales tax on non-necessities (rx drugs, food, clothing, etc are exempt).
VAT is (almost always) higher than sales tax, and many states with sales taxes do not charge it on food, clothing, etc (Sweden charges 12% on these items). Income tax is always higher. Capital gains is always higher, up to double.
[0] http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-individual-income-tax...
Anyhow, the point about rich and poor living side by side happens anywhere where there is gentrification. Some communities, too. I promise you that in some islands in greece there are beggars living side by side to people loading 50" plasmas onto donkeys
Except for the welfare and social programs it has though.
>What are you basing that on? The EU is over 50 countries with their own languages and customs and politics.
Poster was implying about the mix of classes. It's easy for a rich country like Norway or Sweden to look down upon the poor sections of the US and scoff because the poorer parts of Europe are segregated into countries (e.g. Bulgaria). In the US every state has rich and poor sections (and even cities are that way).
You seem to be mistaking our inability to come to a consensus on multiple aspects of these issues with a "fundamentalist opposition. It's unfortunate, but one of the defining aspects of American culture which has served us well over the years, our reliance on self determination and belief that hard work is rewarded, also* yields attitudes that if you aren't doing well then you aren't working hard enough or trying hard enough. Obviously neither of these views are entirely true, but confronting one affects the other, and getting people to reexamine their core beliefs is never easy.
Quite a few places in the North and East of London can be like this.
South side Chicago is bad in a lot of ways --- it's a direct result of decades of overt racial segregation, and crime is absolutely out of control --- but it isn't Flint.
A better analog would be Gary, Indiana (for people who don't know Chicagoland, Gary is a southeast suburb of Chicago).
Gary definitely seems like a good comparison the more I read about Flint.
(It's also microscopic).
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/December-2014/The...
Of course, as with any "no true scotsman" argument, it isn't as bad Flint in every way.
http://www.viralforest.com/you-can-see-the-rapid-decline-of-...
For example https://goo.gl/maps/AviSiJQBcEH2 is the office and https://goo.gl/maps/jWHBmk51nxw is the factory for the Durant-Dort Carriage company (which would eventually evolve into General Motors). And yet, on that same block theres abandoned houses and burned down lots. I lived 1 block from there while building a hardware startup (http://lava.io). Theres a great heritage of DIY and Entrepreneurship on the streets of flint. Even today there's a pretty cool group of entrepreneurs working there to found companies and make big change.
I live in SF now, and it's interesting to draw parallels between SF circa today and Flint circa 1910. Once upon a time Flint was the Silicon Valley of our country, and now it's a wasteland long forgotten by the industry that built it. Definitely makes me wonder what some parts of the bay area might look like 100 years from now.
EDIT: I noticed a "STYLECRAFT CLOTHING" sign on that abandoned building, and found this: https://books.google.com/books?id=jNwDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA302&ots...
It's an ad from a 1952 issue of Popular Mechanics for "Furniture Repair Kit". Neat.
"Take a look at this neighborhood, and tell us what you see"
1.) A horrible slum that is a disgrace and
embarrassment to the U.S. It is an outrage that
anyone would have to live in conditions like that
in the third millennium.
2.) A quaint lower-income neighborhood.
3.) Doesn't seem that bad, not much different in
character from where I grew up.
4.) Drug-dealers and prostitutes gotta live somewhere.
5.) I see a place with home-owners and mortgage
holders, living the American Dream.
6.) We are doing a hell of a job as a society, if this
is supposedly the worst of the worst.3, 4 currently apply (I'm from the area. Many of us in NEO have a conditions like this nearby), and if the lack of upkeep continues, is headed towards 1.
6 would qualify if you're comparing it 3rd world country poverty living standards or if you really want to be optimistic.
I attempted to zillow that area. This is what I found:
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/530-Kenilworth-St-Detroit-...
It's a sad place but there's some really cool stuff going on there between the universities.
having grown up in Youngstown Ohio I got a good first hand impression of what happens when the big jobs providers go away
> To me, there's something really heartbreaking about abandoned and decaying houses.
You're at a lost for words because of some old houses?
At least there aren't gangs roaming the capital, looting, killing, and burning for days. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2328952/Sweden-riots...
I'm not saying either US or Sweden is a nightmare; just that every place has its uglier side.
If you're "out of words" for some old houses and some vegetation, you're probably missing a lot.
I reminisce when I see old buildings, even those in poor condition.
They make me think of the history of the place, and the connections I have to the past.
Also, I've lived in a lot of humble circumstances and have really liked the people I got to know, so I'm somewhat biased towards less modernized settings. I understand that there are a lot of problems in indigent places, and I don't want to minimize that at all, but I have fond memories.
That's quite the hyperbole compared to what actually happened.
IDK of anything comparable in the US in this century.
It's hyperbole only in that the area affected was small compared to the rest of Sweden, in the same way that one street is small compared to the rest of the US.
[1] I'm from Canada and we often like to talk about how big this country is, but in reality most of us live huddled on the US border, and where 45%+ of the US is arable, just 7% of Canada is.
People don't live in the same place for centuries, because they don't need to.
I grew up outside of Flint, and I agree. There's this weird cognitive dissonance going on there because these companies supported so many families for so long. There's a sort of one-way loyalty going on. I knew so many friends and family that worked in the auto industry for years, and were all laid off when it went downhill years back. I'm talking about lots of people with nothing more than a high school diploma (or not even) -- jobless now at 30 or 40. Yet for some reason there's still this loyalty to GM, etc... that big auto is gonna turn things around and come back to save the day.
My dad was in the Ohio state employee union. I remember going to other union's rallies and protests, especially the Middletown steel lockout: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK_Steel_Holding_Corporation#M...
I've seen a lot of good things rot and rust (I'm not even 30!), and Flint is just another of many places.
"Disorder" could work but sounds a bit too nakedly-pejorative.
At least this Dutch boys knows about Flint through Sufjan Steven's song "Flint (For The Unemployed And Underpaid)"[1]:
It's the same outside
Driving to the riverside
I pretend to cry
Even if I cried alone
I forgot the start
Use my hands to use my heart
Even if I died alone
Even if I died alone
Since the first of June
Lost my job
And lost my room
I pretend to try
Even if I tried alone
I forgot the part
Use my hands to use my heart
Even if I died alone
Even if I died alone
Even if I died alone
Even if I died alone
Even if I died
Not since Michael Moore immortalized it. I wouldn't be surprised if many people upvoting this story were making an association with Roger & Me.
The feeling of most folks from Flint I've spoken to is that Moore made a disingenuous "documentary" about Flint not to raise awareness, but to make a buck. It's understandable he's not lauded as a hero.
I also think it's unfair to characterize the reaction of some residents of Michigan to a controversial figure at best as "Michigans backwardness".
CitizenFour - did this present the NSA side of things?
An Inconvenient Truth - did this present the fossil fuel industry's viewpoint?
GasLand -- did this present the drilling industries perspective?
Documentaries are about presenting both sides. Documentaries are about presenting truth as the filmmaker sees it - usually with the intent to draw awareness and elicit change.
Having seen it, and having read a lot of this stuff...I'm genuinely curious what the other side of the coin was/should have been in this film?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Flint,_Mic...
Lead apparently.
You're right about the infrastructure, they even have an airport. Somehow I doubt it will come back. At least occasionally people talk about Detroit revitalization, but you never hear that for Flint.
This lead in the water thing is shameful and makes me very sad and angry.
Dark, but when you're a kid, funny enough.
I won't waste time and energy trying to help people who really, really don't want the kind of help that might actually accomplish something.
But I always think Flint is prime for opportunity. The people need basic essentials, water, food, shelter. But the infrastructure to build factories is there. Power, train lines, the whole deal. It's really a shame. The sad part is, the people are still hell bent on supporting the companies that destroyed the town. Michigan in general is like this, its why they don't allow Tesla vehicle sales.
Growing up my family owned a junkyard and the Flint river ran behind it. It was disgusting. Some of the guys would wade through it on their way two and from work. It was a shortcut, but you had to be a true animal to go that route.