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Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by Lawtonfogle on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @11:50AM (#10738792)
>I'm at a loss for words:

Why are you are a loss for words? This doesn't look significantly different from the town I grew up in (well near). I feel like I'm missing something.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by dalke on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:59PM (#10739268)
I am a US citizen who moved to Sweden. I've done a decent amount of cycling across the Swedish countryside, and think I can explain.

The sights in these photos that you (and I, who grew up in Florida) think are pretty common, are quite rare in Sweden. That is, it's rare to find houses with boarded up windows, or missing part of its siding, or burnt down and in a state of decay. Suburban areas are almost all immaculate, with well kept lawns, and solid construction.

Rare, but not impossible. Here's one https://www.google.com/maps/@59.0577422,12.4528682,3a,37.5y,... . Just down the street is the old market and gas station https://www.google.com/maps/@59.0578664,12.4544937,3a,37.5y,... .

I can gave a hand-waving explanation. This picture is from Edsleskog, a town that used to be more of a real town. Cars didn't become common in Swede until the 1960 or so. (Sweden was a relatively poor country, and I have a Swedish book from the 1950s where two children visit the US and are astonished that a family might have two cars, when a family in Sweden might have a moped.)

But once cars became common, people preferred to drive the 15 minutes to get to the bigger, nearby city of Åmål for shopping and other errands, and for work. Some of the older building are now no longer useful. Since that area has had the population growth that the cities have had, older places are left to decay, rather than be replaced with something more useful.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by thrownaway2424 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @03:05PM (#10740084)
I don't know if it's terribly useful to compare the entire US with Sweden. Sweden is about as populous as the Bay Area. If you're going to make comparisons with the worst places in the US, you should compare with the worst place in Europe. Drop a street view guy in the middle of Donetsk and have a look around.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by dalke on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @04:15PM (#10740526)
But we aren't talking specifically about the 'worst places in the US'. I and others have commented that many of those shots don't "look significantly different from the town I grew up in", nor "markedly different than some places I've been", and that "this could easily be images from parts of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc" or "from any town across much of the North."
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by tangled_zans on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @05:13PM (#10740864)
You do realize how ridiculous that statement is? Even if you compare Arkasas to New York, the difference won't be as tenth as striking as if you compare a random city from Ukraine to Sweden.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by andrelaszlo on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @05:22PM (#10740914)
Haha I think I know you from the Python Meetup Sweden is small indeed.

You're right, I'm just not used to seeing things like this I guess.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by dalke on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @05:51PM (#10741084)
Tjäna! Jajaman, det är jag.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by analyst74 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:37PM (#10739078)
Despite US's overall economical and military dominance, the poor parts of US is really bad. Especially to people from other first-world countries who thought US is similar to their own country.

For the Americans who have not traveled abroad, countries in northern Europe, Canada/Australia generally do not have the level of poverty some parts of US suffers.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by merpnderp on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:53PM (#10740020)
Abandoned or neglected properties are not a great measure for poverty.

The average after government transfer income of the bottom quintile of households in the US is ~$25,000, which is slightly more than the after government transfers to the bottom quintile of households in the UK. Meanwhile the middle quintile of income earners in the UK is about $20,000 short of the middle US quintile.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by sedachv on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @03:31PM (#10740257)
In Canada (and Australia from what I have read, but not personally seen) the level of poverty in many Native towns is certainly comparable.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by zzalpha on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @04:46PM (#10740709)
Umm, there are no "native towns" in Canada.

It's absolutely true that many of the indigenous reserves here are a living tragedy... in fact, like Australia, we have a long and shameful history with respect to our indigenous population, a history that we're still writing today (recently the CBC had to shut down comments on stories about indigenous issues due the quantity of hateful comments they attract).

That said, small town Canada can absolutely suffer as bad as anywhere in the US (just like America's coal and steel towns, it's not unusual for small towns to be dependent on a single industry, and if that industry suffers the town suffers...).

However, we don't tend to have the same level of urban blight and decay as you see in some American cities.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by sedachv on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @06:58PM (#10741411)
> Umm, there are no "native towns" in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_reserves_in_Can...

Most of those have towns in them.

> However, we don't tend to have the same level of urban blight and decay as you see in some American cities.

There are plenty of run-down areas and derelict industrial objects in and around Montreal. It is true you cannot compare Montreal to select cities like Detroit or Newark, but that is because the urban blight there is exclusively a product of systemic racism against blacks in the United States. This is why it makes more sense to compare Detroit to Native towns. Indigenous people in Canada face blatant and open discrimination today that is comparable to what blacks face in the United States.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by flubert on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @07:36PM (#10741556)
>the urban blight there is exclusively a product of systemic racism against blacks in the United States.

https://www.google.com/search?site=&tbm=isch&q=detroit+indus...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by sedachv on Wednesday December 16, 2015 @08:16PM (#10748788)
Median household income in Detroit: $26,325 83% black (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2622000.html)

Walk a block over to Grosse Point: $89,492 93% white (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grosse_Pointe,_Michigan)

Royal Oak: $52,252 90% white (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Oak,_Michigan)

Livonia: $68,973 92% white (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/2649000.html)

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by kbenson on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:07PM (#10738883)
Yeah, it's not markedly different than some places I've been, but it does look a bit more neglected, because of the overgrowth and lack of cleanup of a burned out building and overturned tree. The roads... Well, I live in California and I'm used to roads being shitty. I think a lot of smaller countries don't quite understand the cost of keeping such a large road network in order. The US is a very large place, and there are roads everywhere.

There are just huge differences in property styles in different parts of the US, and between urban and rural properties.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by Someone on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:41PM (#10739547)
Road network size isn't the whole answer. Looking at http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Hig..., Sweden has more meters of highway per capita than the USA. Looking at http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Transport/Roa..., it has about 20-25% less motorway per capita.

The latter more or less equals the difference in GDP, correcting for purchasing power (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PP...)

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by ryanSrich on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:03PM (#10738859)
Yeah I agree. You'll see similar scenes in the rust belt. I grew up in Upstate NY and this could easily be images from parts of Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany, etc.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by rjv on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:26PM (#10739014)
I had the exact same reaction. These photos may has well be Upstate NY.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by cylinder on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:29PM (#10739848)
Yeah this looks like upstate NY; you can see this just an 1-1.5 hour drive from Manhattan.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by vox_mollis on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:17PM (#10738950)
Bear in mind this is HN. Upper-middle-class people tend to originate from upper-middle-class homes. What many of us grow up in is found to be "shocking" to the Brahmin class.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by flubert on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:14PM (#10739362)
Yes, sometimes it is quite surprising how sheltered people can be. I wonder how much of a role the asymmetry of TV and other media plays. People who live less affluent lifestyles can get any amount of exposure to extravagant living through TV, etc.. But the reverse doesn't seem to be true. Maybe the BBC will do a show about those strange "fly-over" people someday...
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by Lawtonfogle on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:25PM (#10739439)
I guess I come from a different world. This looks like areas I use to walk down as a child.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by vadym909 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:13PM (#10739349)
Most foreigners think all of the US looks like New York City or a Beverly Hills suburb because they see that version all the time in the hit movies and on popular TV shows. My relative came to Silicon Valley and was shocked it wasn't like a space-age city with gleaming buildings and futuristic roads. Like truly shocked!
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by andrelaszlo on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:32PM (#10739867)
Yep, that's it I didn't mean to sound condescending. Just think it's sad to see what seems to have been a pretty cozy neighborhood fall apart like that. And no, I haven't seen anything like that here in Sweden but I don't think it makes us better than you.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by flubert on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @05:41PM (#10741039)
"Somewhere in the past 50 years or so the media accidentally constructed an artificial reality that was hidden by the on-purpose entertainment reality of TV shows. You look at any of the CSI shows and think, "well, of course this isn't a real representation of actual crime scene investigators." But it never occurs to you to think as they're arresting a suspect, "since when did it become ordinary for professional cops in their 40s to have no kids, tons of disposable income, and regularly go out on dates that end in sex? And what the hell happened to body fat?" "

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/04/im_not_the_one_you_sh...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by RUG3Y on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:13PM (#10738926)
Right. I live in a rural area in the West, lots of towns look like this (not as green). The town looks poorly maintained but fairly clean, not a lot of trash etc. I don't see the signs that I see in crime infested areas.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by scott_karana on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:06PM (#10738878)
In https://goo.gl/maps/pAQEyZSAEw92, the first one I clicked, there is decay and overgrowth everywhere.

The death of the city's economy is completely evident in that view alone...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by HillRat on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:48PM (#10739155)
State and local governments can't run deficits, so a collapsing local economy acts like a fiscal vise; capital improvement debts aren't easily rescheduled, so you have reduced tax bases carrying long term debt payments (possibly with nonlinear, back-loaded schedules), and so operations are squeezed and capital improvements are stopped. Once you're in that trap, you can't get out; people and companies who can move will, those who can't become cost sinks as per capita operational costs rise. Without some emergency stabilization mechanism for discharging debt and dealing with necessary operations and improvements, there's no way for a town to return to equilibrium.

The same dynamics can be seen with companies that operate on a negative cash flow basis and who fail to properly buffer a period of improved revenue that later reverts to the mean -- short-term prosperity can mean long-term impovershment.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by scott_karana on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:54PM (#10739210)
Oh, I get that! I'm not trying to blame Flint in the slightest.

I was just trying to explain what aspects of the pictures could cause "a loss of words" for an unfamiliar viewer.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by kbenson on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:10PM (#10738901)
Because a building burned down? It would be nice if they fenced it off, so it shows a lack of resources, but I'm not sure that view really indicates what you say it does.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by scott_karana on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:41PM (#10739103)
Maybe that's normal looking in the rust belt, but it's unfamiliar looking to me as well. (Can't speak for the Swede, but I suspect they're surprised for similar reasons)

There is:

1) A burned down building (which has been in that state for some time)

2) Boarded up storefronts

3) Plants growing over the unused fences, which themselves are starting to fall over

4) The lots behind the fences look to have been empty for decades

5) Visibly aging concrete

6) Crumbling sidewalks with plants coming up between the tiles

7) at least 3 of the 5 vehicles are from no newer than ~1998

Combine that with the overcast weather, and the bleak color palette of the remaining buildings, and it looks pretty depressing. :(

Maybe it's not representative: maybe on a sunnier day, the greenery would make it look lush and liveable, but as it stands it's definitely an unfortunate looking Street View, that one...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by kbenson on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:14PM (#10739363)
I'm not saying it doesn't show signs of a neglected area, I just think you're reading too much into certain aspects which may be explained through the area in which the picture was taken.

I'm not sure how long the building has been in that state, but I would imagine less than a year from the vegetation, but that's hard to judge if it all dies in winter. Then again, vegetation usually grows very quickly in those areas. That said, small municipalities move slower, they have less leeway in the budget to deal with unforeseen circumstances.

A lot of what you're stated seems to indicate that you see the open areas here as a sign of neglect or failure. Often in rural areas, building are much more spread out unless they are are towards the town center. There's no reason to build next to someone if you can have a lot or two between you and them. As a city expands, these are naturally filled in as sparse building pushes farther out from the town center and some people don't want to be that far out.

As for the sidewalks and concrete, areas with wet winters that continually fluctuate between freezing and non-freezing temperatures are particularly bad on brick and concrete buildings. The continual expansion of the water when it turns into ice and back into water quickly destroys concrete in these areas. Michigan is known to be particularly bad.

In truth, looking down GlenWood Ave from that picture looks fairly pleasant to me. This could easily be a few hundred feet in either of the towns my parents are from in rural Wisconsin, and much of those towns looks fairly pleasant, if extremely spread out, to my eyes.

For comparison, here's another random spot I found by just choosing a place in google maps and zooming in[1]. Every town has some run-down areas if it's old enough, but having a run-down area doesn't necessarily mean the economy is dead (but I'm not disputing that the economy is likely bad, just that the picture is more indicative of an area than a situation).

1: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0188356,-83.6795166,3a,75y,1...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by scott_karana on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:25PM (#10739826)
I could absolutely be wrong about some of those! As I said, I'm not familiar with the Rust Belt. My view is almost exclusively superficial.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by gilbetron on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:12PM (#10739740)
Flint and Detroit have huge sections of the city like this. It isn't just a street or two. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKQSPJWK5w0
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by munificent on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:39PM (#10739088)
Not just that it burned down. Note that there are weeds growing up the side of the charred wall. It burned down and then nothing was done about it for months.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by kbenson on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:48PM (#10739165)
Besides extra fencing, what should have been done? It's obvious they aren't hurting for space there, so there's not necessarily a great reason to rebuild in that spot even if the owner wanted to rebuild. It's also entirely possibly it was a derelict building, and may not really be owned by anyone. None of these speak well for the economy in the area, but they definitely don't make the "death of the city's economy is completely evident".

In some areas, work that needs to be done by the town or county may take a while. Sometimes that's the nature of living in a rural area.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by scott_karana on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:55PM (#10739216)
Yeah, their choice makes economic sense.

I'm not blaming Flint (or any other town in the Rust Belt), just pointing out concrete items that could leave unfamiliar people "at a loss for words".

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by brewdad on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @05:39PM (#10741028)
FWIW, I did some digging on this property. It burned in April of this year. Clearly arson. It was the site of a seedier than average strip club that has opened and closed a couple of different times in the past 5 years.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/04/watch_as_f...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3051467/MASSIVE-fire...

Under the circumstances, this seems to support the notion of a dying city perhaps giving up.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by duaneb on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:21PM (#10738986)
That could be from any town across much of the North. It's not like it's hard to find abandoned buildings much of anywhere....
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by dsg42 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:29PM (#10739034)
Because he's from Sweden, which doesn't allow it's cities to reach this state. Western countries should not look like this.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by AndrewKemendo on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:54PM (#10739211)
Exactly. Except you can do that in Sweden because it has 9 million people and a tiny inhabited area in comparison.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by x0x0 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @04:21PM (#10740571)
The US will spend at least $637B on our military in 2015, which is, for example, between 6 and 7 times what China spends. We also wasted approximately 5-6 TRILLION dollars on the Iraq war for no coherent reason anybody can figure out, even after the fact.

It's priorities.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-war-anniversary-idUSB...

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by Maarten88 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:53PM (#10739616)
If Sweden can afford it, the US can as well. It's a matter of priorities.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by thrownaway2424 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @03:07PM (#10740091)
It's also a matter of drawing boundaries. It doesn't make any more sense to complain that Sweden is nicer than Flint, than it would to make the same complaint about Seattle or Philadephia. Or, taking the converse, it makes as much sense to blame Swedes for the state of urban decay in Belarus.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by dragontamer on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @02:51PM (#10740013)
Its a matter of politics. US can afford it, but that'd be "Evil Federal Government laying down red tape on locals".

It doesn't help that the local government is sometimes even more incompetent than the Federal Government either. I mean, redirecting the entire city water-supply to a poisoned river? That's some grade A F---ed up right there.

In any case, America overall is a strong country, but the worst parts of America are equivalent to a 3rd-World nation.

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by chiph on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @04:29PM (#10740618)
It's also a matter of population density. If the people move away, the buildings they leave behind soon start to look like this.

There was a documentary on this (with mostly simulated desolation): http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1433058/?ref_=fn_al_tt_2

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by rasz_pl on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @01:20PM (#10739402)
Yes, yes, and you cant get decent internet in LA/NY downtown compared to middle of Fuk nowhere in europe due to population density as well!
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by maxxxxx on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:18PM (#10738962)
I think he is at a loss of words because the supposedly richest country has areas like this.
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by vanderZwan on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:04PM (#10738862)
You missed the

> As a Swede

... part

Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by flubert on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:22PM (#10738993)
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by eric_cc on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @12:34PM (#10739061)
He is at a loss of words. He is not speaking on behalf of You.
[dead]
Re:Flint, MI: So much lead in children’s blood, state of eme... by pc86 on Tuesday December 15, 2015 @04:25PM (#10740600)
Something tells me you overestimate it.