News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by andreyf on Saturday April 25, 2015 @03:59AM (#9437616)
For engineers without open source contributions, why not give a coding project? It seems to me like there's no need to eat into the person's working time, spending a few hours solving an interesting problem shouldn't deter people you want hire to code all day, and the signals you'll get are orthogonal to what you'll be able to assess in person.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by crdoconnor on Saturday April 25, 2015 @05:12AM (#9437756)
I wouldn't mind being asked to create a small piece of open source software that would continue to look good on my portfolio even if the company never talked to me again. Hell, if the company wrote the project boilerplate and the tests and let me fill the code in and put it up with a GPL license, I'd be thrilled :)

Won't hold my breath.

I'm sick to the back teeth of most of these mini coding projects, though. They're too often sent by companies who aren't even sure they want to hire at all or wouldn't hire you anyway for some unrelated reason (age, race, etc.). The projects are always boring and almost never suitable for a portfolio.

It's also too easy to hit the 'send email' button and too easy to ignore the responses. Unless there is some cost for the company sending you the mini-project, a lot are going to waste your time.

For this reason, I actually prefer interviews. They're going to at least do a cursory examination and reject you outright before wasting an hour of their own time.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by mavelikara on Saturday April 25, 2015 @12:03PM (#9438671)
Let me describe the situation from the other side.

Where I am employed we are actively hiring. In late 2012, three of us started a small experimental projected which became a hit with our customers. As more feature requests came rolling in we realized that we need a bigger team to work on the project. We have been hiring since the start of 2014. We now have a team of about 15 engineers, but we still have few more open positions.

From our experience, resumes usually are not a good predictor of anything we care for. The only useful thing it tells us is what firms the candidate has worked at, and what those groups were doing while the candidate was there.

When a candidate comes onsite we spend significant time showing a demo of our product, what our groups ambitions are, discussions to understand what the candidates career goals are etc. We also have the standard white-board interviews, often attempting to design a small feature on our product. This takes significant effort on our part. Before investing this time, we will prefer to see some code from the candidate.

The candidate is offered an option to show us (1) some code they wrote which is out in the public domain, OR (2) some code from their employer (if their employment terms allow it) OR (3) solution to a small coding question we provide. Our coding question takes about 4-5 hours of the candidates time.

This process has worked very well for us. We have been able to screen our candidates with very impressive resumes who wrote horrible code. We have also found many great candidates (some who are my colleagues now!) with ordinary looking resumes.

I hope I have tried to explain our thought process behind asking candidates for some code.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by Decade on Saturday April 25, 2015 @08:48PM (#9440088)
Are you still at AppDynamics? Because my application to your company back in January is still listed in Jobvite as “New.” I applied for several positions, and the distribution is pretty even between “New,” “Closed,” or “Not Selected,” and I never got an interview or an invitation to come on-site.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by mavelikara on Monday April 27, 2015 @01:00AM (#9444454)
Please email me offline at bthomas AT appdynamics DOT com
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by drglitch on Saturday April 25, 2015 @08:19AM (#9438098)
Agree on mini coding, useless projects - especially when an HR drone sends out Java test to a python dev :)

Another thing to keep in mind is that for a lot of people who are already employed, permission must be obtained from current employer before contributing to open source (and more and more companies are actively enforcing that unfortunately).

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by andersonvieira on Saturday April 25, 2015 @09:06AM (#9438210)
> for a lot of people who are already employed, permission must be obtained from current employer before contributing to open source

I am always puzzled about contract clauses that try to limit what an employee can do in their free time. I understand that some people may be in a bad situation and have no choice but to put up with it. But if we're really in a seller's market, as everyone says, how can this kind of thing become a tendency?

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by drglitch on Saturday April 25, 2015 @12:42PM (#9438776)
It's actually usually not the employer, but the local dept of labor laws - for salaries employees, unless explicitly stated otherwise - your employer generally "owns" anything you do in your line of work, even on your own time. So for example if you work for a game studio, coming up with an idea for a game would auto-magically make it your employer's property, even if you did it on a sunday morning.

This is further reinforced by various employer-specific clauses in the hiring contract / code of conduct.

Its screwed up but its the world we live in.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by crdoconnor on Sunday April 26, 2015 @03:13AM (#9440835)
I don't sign contracts like these. Actually, I refuse even to work for employers who put it in and then take it out when asked because the trust has already gone if you demanded to own the work I do on a Sunday afternoon.

Any employer who puts that clause in their contract and whinges about not being able to find good developers has only themselves to blame.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by nodelessness on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:42AM (#9437692)
As someone who is employed, I don't have the inclination to solve a open ended problem that somehow subjectively interests you or some individual arbitrarily in what little time I have in my life. I have other projects I could be working on, my family to give my life to. Not engage in something like this. The test problem should be small. Not a 'coding project'. It is unethical to ask for anything more.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by parados on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:35AM (#9437679)
This is exactly what we do where I work. We send them a small problem that any competent person can solve in 15-30 mins in Python/Java/C++. It is amazing what an effective filter this is and submitted results range from fully tested code, innovative O(1) solutions down to code submitted in MS Word that gives the wrong answer.

As a front line filter it is cheap, simple and revealing.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by ddebernardy on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:53AM (#9437715)
Yes, and 15 min makes sense. What the parent wrote ("spending a few hours solving an interesting problem") does not.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by ddebernardy on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:48AM (#9437703)
I'm not so sure that a software engineer who doesn't have any time (because you know, family) or desire (because it's unpaid work) to spend on open source software would suddenly find it OK to spend more than short amounts of time on a company's test project -- especially if they have a job or clients or any type of regular work lined up.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by hvs on Saturday April 25, 2015 @07:31AM (#9438020)
If you are asking someone to develop something for "a few hours" on their own time, you should be willing to pay them for it. Companies regularly pay recruiters 30% of the first year salary for candidates, companies should be willing to pay a few hundred dollars to someone that they are asking to dedicate a significant chunk of time for the "honor" of developing code for them.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by jghn on Saturday April 25, 2015 @09:26AM (#9438247)
Do you also ask that they pay you for the time spent on site during an interview? It's possible that these projects are replacing on site time.

FWIW we have a coding project but it's part (a large part) of the on site and really just replaces the whiteboarding and such. Candidates are not asked to code on the fly in ither sessions

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by aswanson on Saturday April 25, 2015 @12:47PM (#9438799)
No, but lunch at a good nearby restaurant paid for by the interviewer is a considerate offering. If the level of interest is high enough that man-day or more project submittal is asked of the candidate, at least put some skin in the game along with candidate in terms of time. Time is money. "The only thing I have in this life is time, and you are wasting it." -Andy Grove
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by jghn on Saturday April 25, 2015 @02:26PM (#9439131)
I'd argue that having several people on the company's side - both in person and prep work is skin in the game. I've fought a fairly arduous battle in my company where we spend a lot of time reviewing code samples, resumes, pre-interview discussions and then the actual interviews. All told it's far more person-hours than the candidate is spending. That said, that's exactly how I think the dynamic should be
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by hvs on Saturday April 25, 2015 @03:07PM (#9439265)
I don't think the fact that you have a lot of people spending time on an interview is any sort of "payment" for the interviewee. That's an investment in the company. The interviewee gets nothing out of it (unless they are the one person that is hired).

For what it's worth, I'm not talking about the 2-4 hours an interviewee spends on-site. I'm talking about the additional 4-8 hours some companies expect interviewees to spend doing coding projects or time spent on-site above and beyond 2-4 hours.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by jghn on Saturday April 25, 2015 @05:15PM (#9439585)
What I mean is that there's an investment of time (and time is money) by both sides. IMO the company should spend more time/money than the candidate, at least in boom times like this, but as long as it's fairly equitable neither side can really complain too much. You say that putting in time is an investment for the company but not the candidate unless they're selected - but if the company invests 100 person-hours of work into a candidate only to see it not work out, how is that any different than what a candidate goes through?

So for instance, my coworkers that complained when I said they should be spending several hours reviewing code samples before an interview are being just as silly in my mind as people who get bent out of shape over 5-6 hours of leg work. At the end of the day it behooves both parties to spend a fair amount of time and energy here, in theory this could be a relationship which last many years - isn't it worth it for everyone involved to put in the effort to make sure it's a good fit?

And really, at the end of the day it's entirely possible that the way a particular company or candidate conducts things reflects right away that it's not a great fit (e.g. a candidate loathes the coding challenges, or a company balks at a candidate requesting money). There's nothing wrong with that, a fast fail isn't a bad thing.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by Decade on Saturday April 25, 2015 @07:55PM (#9439971)
This is not equitable. A company generally has cash. You (jghn) spend so much time on the reviews, but at the end of the day, you collect your paycheck and go home. Sucks for the company’s investors, but you’ll be fine.

A job candidate loses both time and money. I complete your challenge, I don’t get paid, I get thrown into the street and starve. I would have made more profit washing dishes at a restaurant.

Besides, word on the street is that nobody can expect to have “a relationship which lasts many years” with any company, so drop your pretense at perfection. That is a contributor to the tech industry’s problems with lack of diversity and actually filling positions with people who can do the job.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by jghn on Sunday April 26, 2015 @12:45PM (#9442320)
"I complete your challenge, I don’t get paid, I get thrown into the street and starve"

This assumes you're not currently employed

"nobody can expect to have “a relationship which lasts many years” with any company"

If I'm taking a job I'd like it to be a place that I could see myself staying for a number of years. It might not work out that way, but it's my goal.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by jmartinpetersen on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:25AM (#9437660)
Because you want to minimize friction. They already have a job so they don't really need you. You want them to want you, and making them jump through your hoops (one way or the other) is alienating.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by andreyf on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:45AM (#9437699)
Nah, you want to minimize friction for the people you want to hire and maximize it for people you don't want to hire. Even without the evaluation signal coding exercises give you (one could argue that it's hard to make it representative of actual work), I think there is a correlation between someone who will spend a couple hours working on a coding problem to demonstrate their skill and the kind of person you want to hire.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by macspoofing on Saturday April 25, 2015 @07:44AM (#9438045)
If you're interviewing 10 people for 1 position, you've just wasted 9 people's time. Maybe a smaller problem that takes a few minutes, but not hours.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by Decade on Saturday April 25, 2015 @05:30AM (#9437800)
I have a limited number of hours and a lot of need for money. I would be a lot happier with these multi-hour code challenges if successful completion led to guaranteed job offer. As it is, they disproportionately waste my time, for the amount of care the recruiter puts on the rejection.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by sheepmullet on Saturday April 25, 2015 @07:12AM (#9437992)
Or if they offered 30-50% above market if you aced their tests.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by pandaman on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:28AM (#9437666)
This is a question of hiring people who already have a job. Would you spend few hours solving an interesting problem while being gainfully employed and, hopefully, having interesting problems of your own? Honest question. I, for one, would not.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by andreyf on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:41AM (#9437690)
Absolutely, for a company that I want to work with. For companies that I'm not super excited about, I politely decline-for-now. Seems to me like that saves everyone tons of time. Do you really want to hire someone that doesn't want to be there enough to spend a couple of hours coding for you and doesn't have open source code to evaluate them on?
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by pandaman on Saturday April 25, 2015 @04:58AM (#9437726)
If a company approaches me there are probably some reasons for that. Because asking random people to prove how much they want to work for this particular company does not seem to be a very productive approach to me. You can post a job ad and get all the people who are supper excited to self select and then you can have your time making them to jump through whatever hoops you want. With somebody who expressed enough interest to answer the recruiter (in broad sense) you are not guaranteed to have a super excited candidate. Making him or her jump through the hoops will most likely terminate this and any future contacts.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by andreyf on Sunday April 26, 2015 @03:14AM (#9440838)
> If a company approaches me there are probably some reasons for that. Because asking random people to prove how much they want to work for this particular company does not seem to be a very productive approach to me.

Why not? Make it a test that is easy to score and then finding people who do well on it and are interested in working for you is rather high, no?

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by pandaman on Sunday April 26, 2015 @03:50AM (#9440923)
It takes time and effort to get somebody who is not looking for a job to talk to you. It's going to cost a lot of money to hire anybody with a random approach. As far as I know, even Google or Apple cannot afford this - every time their recruiters contacted me it was about a job in alignment with my qualifications.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by vonmoltke on Saturday April 25, 2015 @08:55AM (#9438185)
> Do you really want to hire someone that doesn't want to be there enough to spend a couple of hours coding for you and doesn't have open source code to evaluate them on?

I want to hire someone to do a job. That job requires a base level of competence. If they exceed that level such that I think they will bring positive value to the company I vote to hire them. I don't care about their motivation or "passion" beyond what is required to take them over that bar.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by bucky on Saturday April 25, 2015 @08:36AM (#9438134)
I would! I love coding exercises meant to gain information about a candidate; they're like yardsticks for my professional growth. I love evaluating how I solve a problem now vs how I would have solved it while interviewing for the job I'm leaving. I also just enjoy solving problems. To me, doing a coding exercise is like doing a Tuesday crossword puzzle (they're never hard enough to be stressful) that I get to show off: Look how correctly I solved this, and in ink, with no mistakes, with very well written, clear words.

I don't see it as a waste of time; it's about the potential payoff, which is a (presumably) better job with better opportunities. I wouldn't apply to a job unless I was reasonably sure I wanted to work there anyway. I might be very lucky in that I've worked for good companies in the past few years and the only reason I'd leave one of these companies is for a much much better one. Usually when I leave a job, I've become bored of the problem domain anyway and am looking to solve new problems.

Disclosure: 31 year old man, no kids, I live with my partner.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by pandaman on Saturday April 25, 2015 @02:49PM (#9439216)
It's about the potential payoff for me too. When I am not looking for a job (i.e. I am happy with the job I have) an offer to write some code for some company does not look very enticing. After all, if I already thought that company offers a better job, I'd been asking them for a job myself. The most I can offer in this situation is a chance to sell me on the job.

On the other hand, when I am looking for a job (I am unhappy at the current job ) I go far and wide as I am applying to multiple companies. In this situation I talk to the ones that ask for interviews first, as they appear more committed, and push all the tests after the interviews. From my limited experience, by the time the interviews clear up I have at least a couple of offers on hand. Offers I can identify with people I've been talking to, the environment I've seen, the location, the projects etc. Spending several days on tests, which, at best will bring an interview, which may or may not lead to an offer, which, in its turn, may or may not be better than the offers I already have now looks like plain gamble to me. So I take the best offer instead of doing any tests.

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by volkadav on Saturday April 25, 2015 @09:52AM (#9438291)
> no kids

I hate to be that guy, but everything changes when you have kids. Trust me, a spare hour when you have nothing better to do than jump through some hoop for a company is an extremely rare luxury item when you've got little ones. I love solving problems too, but there aren't any technical problems as interesting as reading a book to your snuggly little human(s). :)

c.f. http://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ (not about interviewing, but filter your thoughts about free time through the perspective that article provides...)

Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by hidro on Saturday April 25, 2015 @06:54AM (#9437966)
I strongly prefer this approach, as long as the project is interesting enough to attract engineers, and allows you to assert the aspects you want to see in them. The coding project we give to candidates is to implement an open source Hacker News client. If it were me I won't mind doing one and put it on my portfolio (which I did), regardless of whether I pass the interview.
Re:How not to interview someone who already has a job (2011) by JoeAltmaier on Saturday April 25, 2015 @09:58AM (#9438306)
That's what the resume is for, including a code resume. No, I'm not going to work a day for free for you.