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Re:Project Fi by Google by smacktoward on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:33PM (#9422520)
What I don't get is, what's in this for Sprint and T-Mobile? Currently a user of their network is a customer they "own" -- they deal with that customer directly. Now they have Google sitting between them and the user, which effectively commoditizes their service; Google could switch them out for another network down the road without the user ever knowing or caring. That's great for Google, and probably also great for the user, but not so great for the individual cell providers.

Presumably Google is paying them something to compensate for that, but it still seems dumb -- accepting a little money today at the cost of cutting your own throat in the long term. But then there aren't many providers in the US that aren't dumb, so maybe the long-term threat has just been completely missed by them? Who knows...

Re:Project Fi by Google by Someone1234 on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:48PM (#9422651)
> What I don't get is, what's in this for Sprint and T-Mobile?

Both Sprint and T-Mobile have to build physical infrasture, both to offer basic services (e.g. 3G, talk/text) but to also compete (4G, LTE, etc). Building infrastructure is really expensive. They need land, licences, power, and a network to connect that tower to (assuming it isn't just a relay).

So both networks have this HUGE sunk cost. In an ideal world they would be able to recruit enough users to consume each tower's capacity by 100% at peak. But because they're competing against other networks (with more users) and have to look competitive, they've over-built their network both in scope (e.g. servicing areas with few users) and capacity.

If Sprint and T-Mobile were confident that they could recruit enough users to fill their network they likely wouldn't agree to this deal. Just as AT&T and Verizon haven't. However the likely reality is that both Sprint and T-Mobile are well over capacity in certain areas and every penny that Google can bring in by stealing uses from the big two is just further helps Sprint and T-mobile, even if they just use it to further build out their respective networks.

Additionally: You could frame this as an "illusion of choice." You have Walmart/Target Cellular (Straight Talk/Brightspot) on the low end, T-Mobile themselves in the middle, and Google's Project Fi offering a niche service, but in reality they're all just T-Mobile aimed at a different user base. In all three cases T-Mobile grows, their network grows, and they could kick these brands off any time the contract is up for renew.

PS - T-Mobile actually host just under 30(!) different cellular providers in the US[0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_mobile_v...

Re:Project Fi by Google by warfangle on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:28PM (#9422941)
Not only that, but because it switches to the faster provider, and assuming that Project Fi pays out to providers based on percentage of service used, it's much more in Tmo/Sprint's best interests to upgrade their service - considering the switch to their competitor is automatic and based on quality.
Re:Project Fi by Google by pyrocat on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @04:21PM (#9423285)
That's a pretty big assumption.
Re:Project Fi by Google by Vraxx on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @04:37PM (#9423374)
Seems like a reasonable assumption to me. I doubt they pay a flat rate to all providers they borrow from with Google charging by the 100 MB.
Re:Project Fi by Google by abandonliberty on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @06:18PM (#9423947)
Google consistently tries to increase competition and make both hardware and network owners into a commodity.

Meanwhile hardware and network owners madly fight to stay relevant, like the aggressive customization of Samsung's android Touchwiz or the various telecoms lobbying against net neutrality.

Re:Project Fi by Google by shkkmo on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @11:12PM (#9424827)
I don't think that t-mobile and sprint are opposed to commoditization. The expansion of the commoditization of mobile access gives them new ways to compete against at&t and verizon.

The era of multi-year contracts and heavy device subsidies has primarily helped those with large market share maintain it. T-mobile in particular has been pushing to change how the market works and bring an end to some of the ways that customers have been locked in to carriers. I wouldn't be to surprised to seem them support further commoditization.

Re:Project Fi by Google by darkmighty on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @05:55PM (#9423840)
Even then a good strategy for the networks would be to build capacity on crowded areas where infrastructure is cheap and neglect all other areas for the second carrier.
Re:Project Fi by Google by Throwaway90283 on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @07:15PM (#9424170)
Upgrading their service is expensive. T-Mobile upgrades, then Sprint has to upgrade to compete, then T-Mobile has to upgrade again, then Sprint...

Instead what's going to happen, T-Mobile and Sprint both agree to offer the same performance, or focus on different regions.

It's like selling slices of pizza on the street. If you're smart, you and your competitor agree to sell at $5/slice. If you drop to $4, sure you'll get more customers for a short period of time, but then your competitor drops to $4, and now you both just cut 20% off your revenue for no reason.

Re:Project Fi by Google by striking on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @07:47PM (#9424262)
Re:Project Fi by Google by javert on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @09:50PM (#9424591)
Technically, the pizza idea won't work, because more people will enter the market and compete on price. Doesn't apply for telecom since it's all monopolized and new competitors can't enter.
Re:Project Fi by Google by green7ea on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:42PM (#9423027)
If I'm not mistaken, when google bid on the wireless spectrum in 2008, they did so in such a way that extra conditions had to be met by the winner of the auction [1]. One of these conditions is 'Open networks: Third parties (like internet service providers) should be able to interconnect at any technically feasible point in a 700 MHz licensee's wireless network.' They could be taking advantage of this clause to offer the Google Fi service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_2008_wireless_spe...

Re:Project Fi by Google by stdgy on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:37PM (#9422559)
It brings the costs of on-boarding, support and sales to 0. At least, from the customer facing perspective. Presumably, they also believe this will bring them a net increase in 'paying users', with larger customer defections coming from the big players (Verizon and AT&T) rather than their own customer base.

I could see how it could be an attractive revenue stream.

Re:Project Fi by Google by mmanfrin on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:18PM (#9422872)
Both Sprint and T-Mobile are major providers to MVNO networks -- a significant amount of business they generate comes from carriers who use Sprint/TMo's networks, but handle the customer relations/sales/billing themselves.

To Sprint and T-Mobile, Google is just another MVNO carrier.

Re:Project Fi by Google by salem on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @11:10PM (#9424822)
No, the big difference here is that Google's MVNO is dynamically switching between multiple providers.

Most MVNOs are just resellers of a single network. They may migrate users between networks as contracts expire, but dynamically balancing between multiple networks is less common. I'm sure many people have thought of this idea before (Apple included) but actually getting multiple carriers to agree to a deal is what's interesting about this.

It's also probable only recently feasible with a mass market phone that can handle all the difference frequencies (and potentially different network types) involved.

Re:Project Fi by Google by cylinder on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:36PM (#9422547)
They are probably getting excess capacity bought by Google, it's not a bad idea to take easy guaranteed revenue.

My other theory is that they are giving Google a taste of the business that will later lead to Google buying T-Mobile or Sprint outright.

Re:Project Fi by Google by wiremine on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:40PM (#9422579)
That was a question I had: where's the money for Google? Are they in this to force competition only, or do they see this as a viable business model?

For those in the know: how much would they get per subscriber, assuming $20 for the "basics" as they call it, and $10 per Gig for data?

This is likely difficult to calculate, given they are using both T-Mobile _and_ Sprint, and they refund unused data. But I'd be curious nevertheless...

Re:Project Fi by Google by NKCSS on Thursday April 23, 2015 @02:13AM (#9425219)
They don't need to make money; they earn more money off of advertisements served.

This plan enables people to be 'more online' while mobile, even in other countries.

Google has always been trying to lower the barriers to the internet (slow javascript -> Chrome (v8 engine), the internet baloons in africa, and now a global cellular/mobile internet service at decent rates).

Re:Project Fi by Google by sukilot on Friday April 24, 2015 @01:54AM (#9431649)
But no one clicks on ads on mobile.
Re:Project Fi by Google by usrusr on Friday April 24, 2015 @01:27PM (#9434748)
People consume Google Maps on mobile. Maps is much more the global yellow pages of the 21st century than targeted banner ads or even web search could ever be. I don't know how much Google has started monetizing Maps yet, but the market potential is huge: "OK Google take me to an Italian restaurant" is still much more likely to end with money changing hands than "OK Google take me to a website that talks about pizza". I even think that the primary motivation for creating Android was to secure that spot. Fi would fit very well into that strategy, because Maps gets more powerful when the user is far from home. Therefore, unacceptable international data charges are disproportionally bad for Maps. If fi starts a race to the bottom for data roaming prices, Maps will benefit a lot.
Re:Project Fi by Google by laurencerowe on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:49PM (#9422667)
Google is charging a significant markup over T-Mobile's existing rates ($30/month for 5Gb vs $70/month through Gooogle.) So Fi is really only interesting for people doing significant international roaming.
Re:Project Fi by Google by bko on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @04:09PM (#9423206)
Where did you get your numbers?

T-Mobile site says 1 GB of 4G data with unlimited talk and text for $50 a month.

5 gigs of 4G data is $70

http://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/individual.html

Re:Project Fi by Google by mcpherrinm on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @05:02PM (#9423528)
http://prepaid-phones.t-mobile.com/prepaid-plans

If you scroll down, there's:

$30 per month — Unlimited web and text with 100 minutes talk 100 minutes talk | Unlimited text | First 5GB at up to 4G speeds

I'm considering switch from that plan to Google Fi for Canada data.

Re:Project Fi by Google by tertius on Thursday April 23, 2015 @02:21AM (#9425230)
No tethering with that plan.
Re:Project Fi by Google by mcpherrinm on Monday May 04, 2015 @12:47AM (#9484363)
If you install the T-mobile app which lets you know your monthly usage, it claims I have 100 megabytes of tethering data. I rather quickly uninstalled it since it's a pain, but some limited tethering does seem to work for me -- I've only used it occasionally to SSH/mosh, but after a while it does an http redirect to a "No tethering for you!" screen; I assume after that 100mb cap is reached (though I haven't checked)
Re:Project Fi by Google by laurencerowe on Thursday April 23, 2015 @09:16PM (#9430910)
Tethering works for me.
Re:Project Fi by Google by samsolomon on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @04:34PM (#9423357)
I can confirm, that's the exact plan I have.

There are some cheaper pay-as-you-go plans, but those are actually Walmart's plans using T-Mobile's towers—similar to what Google is doing here.

Re:Project Fi by Google by StavrosK on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @05:13PM (#9423581)
I just got a T-mobile plan, the one you're referring to, an hour ago, and you are right, I paid $50 for the plan (plus $15 for the card).
Re:Project Fi by Google by henrikg on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @11:15PM (#9424837)
I've had TMO in the past, and the Google plan is attractive to me for a couple of reasons

* T-Mobile customer service is inconsistent in messaging on the phone, via Facebook, stores

* As a H1B visa holder I am, according to TMO, not able to get a postpaid plan

* Prepaid plan does not work outside of the US

* Prepaid plan has issues receiving short codes from Uber/Bank of America and possibly others - I've spent 8+ hours trying to get it resolved and just ended up giving up.

* I currently use Cricket, due to the 20GB max, but the network is so incredibly slow that it's almost pointless. In NYC I often get at most 100kb/s downstream, when on LTE; that's just no good.

* Spam calls to my Cricket number, and they are unable to do anything about the multiple calls I receive a day

* I use Google Voice already, and it's incredible - except for international texting which they have crappy support for.

* Google Voice has issues with short codes, kinda like TMO prepaid.

Assuming the latter two has been solved with Project Fi + I can get proper network speeds + they filter out spam + automatic transcripts of voicemails (latter two being Google Voice features), then I'm a fan. Can't wait to get it for my Nexus 6.

Re:Project Fi by Google by rizwank on Thursday April 23, 2015 @01:23AM (#9425128)
TMO prepaid and TMO MVNOs now have full short code access.

-citation: I confounded and run a U.S. MVNO.

Re:Project Fi by Google by mynameisvlad on Thursday April 23, 2015 @03:24AM (#9425363)
> * As a H1B visa holder I am, according to TMO, not able to get a postpaid plan

What? I'm on a TN and I have a postpaid plan and device payment plan. Your visa status doesn't really affect your phone plan eligibility.

Re:Project Fi by Google by vitobcn on Thursday April 23, 2015 @03:50AM (#9425419)
Visa status does not affect your eligibility for payment plans.

However, H1B holders are people having recently arrived to the US, and therefore with 0 credit history. This is what impacts the capability to get a postpaid plan, but after a few months to build it up there should be no problem.

Personally, I find it ridiculous. Having money in the bank as well as a good salary, and not being able to sign up for a 30$ monthly plan; or applying for a credit card and getting either rejected or one with a 200$ credit limit.

Re:Project Fi by Google by ghshephard on Thursday April 23, 2015 @04:49AM (#9425537)
I can confirm that Visa status is immaterial for payment plans.

AT&T will let you sign up for a post-paid without a credit history. I didn't want to provide a SSN (even though I have one), so they let me pay an $800 deposit fee - was worth it to avoid the personal information exposure.

The credit card thing is strange - I got a $20,000 one with wells fargo the month after I moved down to the united states in 1996 - on a $50,000 salary working desktop support. I was quite honestly a little shocked - but just went with it.

Re:Project Fi by Google by _delirium on Thursday April 23, 2015 @10:13AM (#9426773)
Credit cards have tightened up a lot post-2007, both rejecting a lot more applicants, and offering much lower initial limits.
Re:Project Fi by Google by mynameisvlad on Thursday April 23, 2015 @10:22AM (#9426835)
Yeah, exactly, visa status has nothing to do with it. It's all credit history, and it shouldn't be very hard to start credit history. My first card was from my CU, preapproved up to $5k since I was a new resident. If that's not an option, there's secured cards all over the marketplace that can jumpstart credit histories.
Re:Project Fi by Google by ericd on Thursday April 23, 2015 @02:06AM (#9425205)
I think the text issues are due to Google Voice and not T-Mo (I have the GVoice+T-Mo unlimited data combo, and I think I only have short code issues with the GVoice number).
Re:Project Fi by Google by h078 on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:27PM (#9422932)
T-mobile does not have unlimited calls for that plan. It is $30 per month — Unlimited web and text with 100 minutes talk 100 minutes talk | Unlimited text | First 5GB at up to 4G speeds
Re:Project Fi by Google by chx on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:01PM (#9422736)
T-Mobile gives you free 128kb/s international data though.
Re:Project Fi by Google by nandhp on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:06PM (#9422785)
Except T-Mobile already has unlimited international roaming (text/data) on their postpaid plans. (Admittedly, the special $30/month plan costs less than the postpaid plans.)
Re:Project Fi by Google by duaneb on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @10:09PM (#9424638)
That's after a $50 charge for unlimited calls and texts, and unlimited edge data. Not that it's a trivial service, but I would save about ~$30-40 a month with no service loss. Probably a service gain, especially if they get AT&T or even a certain CDMA service provider (I can dream).
Re:Project Fi by Google by dragonwriter on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:55PM (#9423117)
Or people whose data usage is substantially below the point where typical carrier plans per-GB rates are optimal.
Re:Project Fi by Google by dalanmiller on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @05:49PM (#9423806)
Yeah but as a T-Mobile customer myself, that plan which is only available if you purchase the SIM card online or through Walmart, isn't sufficient for my needs. As much as I like being able to call via the Hangouts Dialer WiFi calling is still not of very good quality.
Re:Project Fi by Google by runjake on Thursday April 23, 2015 @02:15PM (#9428693)
Or interesting for people who need more than 100 minutes for voice calls (that $30 plan is only 100 minutes voice), who want whatever benefit there is for additional Sprint coverage, or Wi-fi Calling usage with a Nexus 6.
Re:Project Fi by Google by henryw on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @06:54PM (#9424096)
I have this plan too, but pay $15 ($45 total for 5gb) so I can tether to the iPhone.
Re:Project Fi by Google by swalsh on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @03:18PM (#9422867)
With 4G, you need as much spectrum as possible to provide fast service. Sprint and T Mobile are losing the 4G race pretty hard. Regulators won't let them merge, so this is kind of a way for them to team up. Just my speculation.
Re:Project Fi by Google by fixxer on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:36PM (#9422550)
They already do that (allow a 3rd party to resell over their infrastructure) with Ting. They are in a commodity biz.
Re:Project Fi by Google by briffle on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:39PM (#9422572)
and virgin mobile and boost (both of which they own) plus a dozen other MVNO cell companies.
Re:Project Fi by Google by fixxer on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:41PM (#9422590)
I'm tempted to get short Tucows on this, but they've been so awesome that I don't think I'd leave for Google's price point.
Re:Project Fi by Google by Joeri on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @02:42PM (#9422599)
This just happened in Belgium. One of the networks was reselling through the biggest internet and tv provider. It seemed like a sweet deal, since they were getting most of the revenue and had almost none of the support costs. Now the internet provider has bought a competing wireless network, and will move their customers over to that one instead, ending the contract. The original network provider is going to have some tough financial times ahead because they're seeing 20% of their customers walk out the door all at once.
Re:Project Fi by Google by antaviana on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @08:37PM (#9424398)
Since there is the Nexus 6 requirement acting as a throttle, it allows them to carry out a controlled experiment on a very small sample for this business model. It also gives them some visiblity for Google's future plans, as to be more prepared for them.
Re:Project Fi by Google by URSpider94 on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @09:46PM (#9424577)
Sprint and T-Mobile already have thriving businesses in reselling their bandwidth through mobile virtual network operators (MVNO's, see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_virtual_network_operat...). You've probably heard of some of them, like Boost Mobile and Virgin Mobile. This is because they have excess capacity that they can't sell through their own sales channels.
Re:Project Fi by Google by rizwank on Thursday April 23, 2015 @01:25AM (#9425132)
Boost and Virgin are both owned by sprint, FYI.
Re:Project Fi by Google by jmngomes on Thursday April 23, 2015 @09:34AM (#9426518)
"...it still seems dumb -- accepting a little money today at the cost of cutting your own throat in the long term. But then there aren't many providers in the US that aren't dumb"

Well, if history proves anything is that most of their investors will prefer an immediate cash-in that will raise the results and the stock price, over the long-term sustainability of the company.

Re:Project Fi by Google by dzhiurgis on Wednesday April 22, 2015 @06:20PM (#9423950)
Separation of concerns?

Let ye olde business do the infrastructure, and Google - data mining.

Re:Project Fi by Google by spullara on Thursday April 23, 2015 @02:01AM (#9425197)
Relevance? Verizon and AT&T are killing them.