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Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by FreakyT on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:16AM (#9303712)
Linguistic purity movements continue to strike me as largely pointless. It seems better that language evolve naturally -- as long as it remains effective as a communication medium, what is the issue?
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:54AM (#9304074)
No.

Everybody knows that languages naturally evolve on their own. The advantages of the "Académie" are:

  - it slows down the evolution allowing better choices.

  - although the language is still driven by everybody using it, it is stirred in the right direction by linguists and authors, usually making choices consistent with the rest of the languages, its history and roots.
The best example of what happens when such a mechanism isn't in place is the "biweekly" and "irregardless" mess in english!

I am really fond of the "Real Academia Española" as they go even further than their french counterpart, and regularly change the spelling of words to reflect their modern pronounciation.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by pervycreeper on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:15AM (#9304264)
> The best example of what happens when such a mechanism isn't in place is the "biweekly" and "irregardless" mess in english!

What mess would that be, exactly? Those who care about English tend not to use terms like this. Conversely, correct French is replete with special cases and arbitrary deviations from consistent logic.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:38AM (#9304421)
"biweekly" used to have a meaning, now it has two (which aren't compatible), making it unclear which one the speaker means.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by pervycreeper on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:49AM (#9304497)
That's not much of a mess. I read "semiweekly" just as often.

Also, word composition doesn't necessarily need to be associative ;)

   biweek/ly- once every two weeks

   bi/weekly- twice every week
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:04PM (#9304622)
So when you see "biweekly" somewere, how do you interpret it?
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by iamcurious on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:29AM (#9304356)
I am really fond of the "Real Academia Española" as they go even further than their french counterpart, and regularly change the spelling of words to reflect their modern pronounciation.

In Spanish you don't remember the spelling of most words, the spelling is just an encoding of a neutral pronounciation. Even if there are some irregularities, you remember the irregularity instead of the whole word. For instance, you would remember "kamikaze both k".

So most spellings get fixed on their own. Not bashing on the RAE though, they made such a nice job making this possible.

Edit:wording

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by jfaucett on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:19AM (#9304296)
agree. la REA does a really good job. English is a nightmare mixture of terms that were molded together from everything from old germanic, latin, to french, to norsk, with zero control over anything and there is an entire subject area termed "spelling" just because the phonetics differ so greatly from what actually stands on the page (i.e kernel/colonol - what?), which to me is just a complete waste of kids time.

I think we all agree no one can force anything on a language, but at least having standards that are phonetic, have no exceptional rules, etc, gives you a solid reference. Of course, plenty of the standards bodies don't do this and just make it even more convoluted such as the Scharf-S rules in new germen rechtschreibung, and all the new english words copied verbatum that don't follow standard german rules, which leaves everyone just sitting there guessing...

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by stdbrouw on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:12AM (#9304241)
Isn't this just the linguistic equivalent of micro-optimization, though? There's tons of grammatical (e.g. differences in the subjunctive between verbs that use the auxiliary etre or avoir) and spelling oddities (le hanche but l'hôtel) in French, but, thank the lord, at least they've been able to keep "formage" from being an accepted alternative spelling of "fromage"!
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:13PM (#9304684)
If spelling didn't negatively affect schooling and careers, I would somewhat agree with you.

The problem would still be there for meanings. Who deicide the meaning of a word in a given context when it has become ambivalent (e.g.: biweekly)?

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by stdbrouw on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:21PM (#9304742)
In many languages, including French, sometimes the past and present tense sound the same and are even spelled the same. The world hasn't exploded yet. People figure out ways to get their meaning across.

Also, dictionaries based on accepted usage (ask ten random native speakers whether they consider spelling ___ to be acceptable) give most of the advantages of dictionaries based on dictate (what the academy thinks).

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by seszett on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:08AM (#9304208)
> I am really fond of the "Real Academia Española" as they go even further than their french counterpart, and regularly change the spelling of words to reflect their modern pronounciation.

The Académie does that too, but people are so used to having irregular or (apparently) illogical spelling that the new spellings catch on very slowly. It works though, and today you rarely see someone write "clef" instead of "clé" or "cuiller" instead of "cuillère". A few verbs got their accents changed from "é" to "è" too, following modern pronunciation. All that was in 1990.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by alricb on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:41AM (#9304440)
I think it's partly because when spelling was standardized in the 17th-18th century, it was done with a "learned" view that spelling should reflect a word's origin. So you get "doigt" for finger because of the latin digitus, the circumflex to denote an S that has become silent (hôpital vs. hospital), and even overcorrections (that have been recorrected since), like nénuphar -> nénufar (ph is used to denote places where there used to be a greek phi, but nénufar comes from Arabic)
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by dorfsmay on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @12:08PM (#9304651)
When it comes to spelling though, they are too slow. Why do we have 'k', 'c' and 'qu' when one would suffice?

What about all the spelling we never pronouce ("ils mangent")?

If the Académie doesn't do anything about it, eventually people will create their own simplifications, and that is guaranteed to be a mess.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by panglott on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:46AM (#9303991)
There is an ancient perception that one's own language is degraded, that the language of older literature is more vital, more robust, richer. You can find this strain of thought in English literature for hundreds of years, in French, and in classical Latin and Greek, and many other literary traditions, I'm sure.

There must be some basic cognitive bias here, like valorizing too highly the literature you loved in your youth, while discounting the creative innovations of your own age.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by kissickas on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:07AM (#9304203)
Or by cherry-picking the greatest works of century-long periods and comparing them to the endless onslaught of terrible works today. That said, even if there is a selective bias, that doesn't make it any less useful to preserve backwards compatibility so we can understand those great works.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by PepeGomez on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @01:22PM (#9305217)
Or maybe old language looks "richer", because you can easily notice grammar used in old literature that is no longer used in modern speech, but it's very hard to spot grammar that didn't exist yet.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by mc32 on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:19AM (#9304295)
From France's pov, it all started as a way to centralize and wrest power away from the provinces, later as a way put France and French at the center of Europe. Having been the center of science and education for much of the middle ages, renaissance, colonial power, etc. It's hard for France to give in symbolically and allow that there are stronger influences than its own.

It's been a quixotic quest, at best, it's not as if in regular speech (French) people didn't inject whatever was the argot dujour into the speech be it domestic or foreign.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by borgia on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:52AM (#9304050)
>Linguistic purity movements continue to strike me as largely pointless. It seems better that language evolve naturally -- as long as it remains effective as a communication medium, what is the issue?

On the one hand I agree with you. The English we use now, even when written or spoken in a grammatically perfect way, is very different to the English used a couple of hundred years ago.

On the other hand, seeing "your/you're" or "they're/their/there" used incorrectly or interchangeably rustles my jimmies immeasurably.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by 0xffff2 on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:38AM (#9304414)
Do the French really not have that problem though? It seems to me that most people know the difference between "your" and "you're", they just don't care enough to use the right variant.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by borgia on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @04:17PM (#9306537)
Regarding your question about French, I'm not too sure. There/their/they're would be la/leur/ils sont, so perhaps there's scope for the first two to become conflated, not so much the last.

As far as I know the biggest issue French is facing is the injection of English words where there isn't a French equivalent.

Then again, French people seem to absolutely loathe the version of French spoken in Quebec so there could be a plethora of other issues involved that we don't have in English.

Regarding your second point, personally I'm not sure but ignorance certainly plays its part one way or another.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by Svip on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:11AM (#9304228)
You can argue if that if languages are merely tools, then sure, why not? But it leaves out things to wonder about and be intrigued by. I am not a fan of the idea that we cannot make interesting linguistic additions to our languages any more.

And certainly not isolated to English. I find internet lingo in non-English languages far more interesting than those in English (at least when we are talking about something else than simply using the English loanword), since the Internet is largely an English-written concept, other languages are finding its incompatibilities with English difficult and the solutions can be quite interesting.

I find the anglifications of languages to be uninteresting at best, from a completely linguistic standpoint. Take a modern item like a 'vacuum cleaner', called »støvsuger« in Danish, which literally translates as 'dust sucker'. This reveals a difference in how each language's speakers think about items, words and their meanings.

If all words are English, then the languages themselves reveal nothing about our differences and how we think. Moreover, it will cause us all to think in the same way. It's documented that speaking more languages helps one think different about approaching problems, even ones not related to language. It broadens the mind. Everything being English won't broaden the mind.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by jacquesm on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:19AM (#9303722)
It stems from fear of identity loss.

The weird thing is that in the longer turn it results in a much larger problem: irrelevance.

Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by jhpriestley on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:24AM (#9304327)
I'm not sure what "natural" evolution you're referring to. We can think of language as a natural behavior of man - a social creature that uses technology. In this case we must admit that this creature also sometimes forms language purity movements.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by rw37 on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:45AM (#9303976)
Right. I can almost see the case when a language is in real danger of extinction, although even then maintaining its purity might be harmful, but French is not in danger of extinction anytime soon.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by auganov on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:59AM (#9304582)
Well I can feel how it's neat to have a pure version of the language. Maintaining some knowledge about languages that are/will probably die is also nice. The most striking thing to me is how people tend to get so conservative about natural languages.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by realusername on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @10:53AM (#9304062)
It depends, sometimes the words they invent fit quite naturally into the language and people tend to use them and sometimes they just invent something unpronounceable and obviously nobody is using those words and use the English word as a replacement instead.
Re:France Gives in to the Hashtag by agumonkey on Wednesday April 01, 2015 @11:02AM (#9304166)
Especially regarding the cyclic relationship between English and French, it's not as if both of us didn't borrow words in the past.