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Re:To tip or not to tip? by grecy on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:01PM (#9180968)
I'm from Australia (no tipping) and have been living in North America for 9 years (always tipping) so this issue is close to my heart.

I've come to see tipping as a form of slavery, the only twist being it's paid - albeit very lowly.

It's a way for people with money to say "Hey peasant: If you do what I want, and if I'm happy about it, and if I feel like it, I might give you a little of my money. Or not".

Sort of like a work contract where the employer has ultimate power and absolutely no rules to govern if they even have to pay their employees at all. Of course, there are labor laws against that sort of thing in developed countries, so tipping is just a way to circumvent those labor laws.

It would be much better if those people were simply paid what they should be paid by their employer in the first place, and the terms of that were bound by labor laws.

I personally feel dirty every time I tip - it almost feels like being at a strip bar or something similar.

(To be clear, I always tip, because the people in those jobs rely on it. It's not their fault I don't like the system.)

Re:To tip or not to tip? by tptacek on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:09PM (#9181024)
Do you actually talk to service staff about this? Do they tell you they feel enslaved and demeaned by large tips? I have had this conversation repeatedly, and not one server has ever told me they felt bad about tips.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by acjohnson55 on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:20PM (#9181117)
I don't think the parent poster mentioned anything about large tips. I myself read complaints about poor tips constantly in my Facebook feed, usually from the same disgruntled couple of service industry friends of mine. But then again, I don't think I have that many more friends in the service industry.

As far as I can see, tipping is not adds frustrating unpredictability to their income, but it also exposes them to discrimination.

As a customer, I find it annoying because it makes paying for my meal a math problem, particularly when dining in a group.

I see nothing wrong with a true gratuity for stellar service, but when it's just an unwritten (or written) extra cost, it's absurd. Just charge me what it costs to pay your service people.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by tass on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:29PM (#9181172)
Yes, dine in a group, split your bill, then work out how much tax needs to be split (since for some crazy reason it's not included in the price) then work out a tip.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by waterlesscloud on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:09PM (#9181417)
If you left their income solely up to their employers, it would be more predictable. But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by maratd on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @10:30PM (#9182195)
> But it would also almost certainly be considerably lower.

No, it wouldn't. It would be exactly the same. Because their employer knows exactly how much they will get in tips and subtracted that same amount from their salary. The cost of labor is constant, regardless of how you divide it.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by waterlesscloud on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @02:59AM (#9182924)
Frankly, you're just flat out wrong on this. If the employer can capture this income, they will. You're welcome to present evidence otherwise.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by maratd on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @11:31AM (#9184574)
If the employer captures too much income, the employee quits. That's what controls the amount the employer can capture and that's the labor wage for the work. This is econ 101.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by tptacek on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @06:39PM (#9187935)
Doesn't econ 101 have something to say about Pareto Efficiency, or is that a later course?
Re:To tip or not to tip? by acjohnson55 on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @09:13PM (#9181932)
You're suggesting that, in the status quo, some aspect of the tipping system is tilting the distribution of revenue toward servers instead of employers. Why do you think so?
Re:To tip or not to tip? by waterlesscloud on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @09:27PM (#9181980)
Yep, that's what I'm saying.

If servers were paid entirely by the employers directly, they'd be paid the least amount that got an acceptable level of employee. Same as all other service industry jobs.

Since the payment was coming from the employer, it would be included in the meal price. Meal price is a competitive factor for restaurants, and all else being equal, those restaurants with lower meal prices will do better than equivalent restaurants with higher meal prices. The pressure to have lower meal prices would lead to lower pay for the employees. That would be one of the easiest places to cut costs, and thus prices.

Customers don't, as a rule, include tips in their evaluation of meal prices. So it removes the downward competitive pressure there.

What this really boils down to is that customers are more generous with direct payments to servers than their employers would be. Do you think this isn't true? Why?

Re:To tip or not to tip? by acjohnson55 on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @06:38PM (#9187932)
But there's already a free market for labor, wage floor notwithstanding. Anybody who's paying above the minimum wage for servers already has to compete on wages. And they have to compete with other industries as well. Tipping simply allows the equilibrium base wage (and even the wage floor itself, by policy) to be lower than it would otherwise be.

Plenty of study shows that generosity or level of service have very little to do with tipping on the whole. People typically tip based on personal habit relative to their interpretation of local custom. (I can try to find sources if you doubt this.) I don't think there's any reason to believe that customers don't take gratuity, and tax for that matter, into account when deciding when and where to dine out.

I'm not suggesting that the situation would be the exact same for every server if tipping went away. Some would benefit, others would suffer. On the whole, it would be less discriminatory. But I don't see why we would expect to see a macro change in waitstaff income.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by pjmorris on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:17PM (#9181090)
My experience is old, but I once spent five years working in restaurant kitchens. My friends included plenty of servers, bartenders and other tipped staff. A couple of the places were pretty popular, and the staff was happy to be raking in good tips on high-priced food. One of the places wasn't so popular or expensive, and people were pinching pennies to get by. Opinions about tipping varied by place.

I suspect, given your taste and profession, that you might be talking to more servers at the kinds of places where they'd be happy to collect tips that exceeded, say, minimum wage.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by boomzilla on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:15PM (#9181067)
That's not fair. The service staff do not have an option to work in a place whether the salary is good enough that they don't have to rely on tips. Given the choice of working for 20 dollars per hour versus 10 per hour + average 15 per hour tip, I would go for the first option.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by EliRivers on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:19PM (#9181105)
Where is this? Stockholm?
Re:To tip or not to tip? by amyjess on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:49PM (#9181308)
Oh, trust me, there's no shortage of retail jobs that don't do tips. You can work at a supermarket or a department store or any other store that employs cashiers. Even at a restaurant, you can always be a busboy or a dishwasher. If you're working a tipping job, it's because you specifically sought one out over other retail jobs.

People who work tipping jobs do so because they pay better on average, not because it's the only job available. Tips scale tremendously. If you work at a high-volume restaurant or, better, a restaurant with high prices, you'll be pulling in decent cash. And every once in a while, you'll get that mythican high-roller who decides to be charitable and drops a wad of cash on the table. Hell, a server at a fancy restaurant will be pulling in so much money that it would be absurd to categorize them them with other retail employees (once you get into super-fancy restaurants, serving is treated more like a concierge job than anything else).

Restaurant staff has a pecking order, much like high school. Of all the non-manager positions, servers are the most prestigious. Why? Because they make the most money.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by vmarsy on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:55PM (#9181346)
It's a trade-off:

With tips you get some clear advantages over non tipping. The waiters have a huge incentive to give you a pleasant meal experience. This is very annoying to go to a restaurant and it appears to be more complicated for you to get water than it is when you're eating at home. This is what you often experience in no-tipping-countries restaurants. The tip is like an implicit contract with the waiter: Deliver me a good service, I will pay the price.

The cons: What about the kitchen staff, the host/hostess, do they get part of the tip? What happen when the food is terrible but the service awesome, or vice versa. But most important, as acjohnson55 mentions : but it also exposes them to discrimination. Sadly discrimination is real and tipping here doesn't help.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by vilmosi on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:15PM (#9181437)
"This is very annoying to go to a restaurant and it appears to be more complicated for you to get water than it is when you're eating at home. This is what you often experience in no-tipping-countries restaurants"

I think you are mistaken here.

In tipping countries waiters basically beg you to leave as soon as you've eaten. They are always around you to upsell something (bigger tip) or to passive aggressively bring you your check. Eating out for only an hour is common.

In non-tipping countries however, the waiter simply leaves you alone to eat in peace. They don't ask you "Do you need anything else" every 5 minutes. People on average stay out more because of this.

Which is why you feel ignored. Different cultures.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by vmarsy on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:50PM (#9181596)
"In tipping countries waiters basically beg you to leave as soon as you've eaten." That is true, is it a perverse effect of the tip? (for an average meal on an average table, 1 tip of 30% in 2 hours is not as good as 2 tips at 20%) or is it just another culture: people in the USA eat faster than some south Europe countries for instance.

I grew up in a non-tipping country, this isn't a culture issue when some waiters are clearly hard to find in the restaurant, good waiters will leave you alone, but when you need them they will be here, or at least know when they need to take a look from far away and see if water/bread seems lacking.

This is annoying to just be frustrated when you planned to have a good night, and know that other people are going to be frustrated by that bad waiter too.

If I am unlucky and have to get a terrible waiter, I appreciate the fact that he/she is going to provide a minimum service because of the tip.

Fortunately, for non-tipping countries, reviews like Yelp/Foursquare/... kind of help the market I think, you can see what the reviews says about the service.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by eridius on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:07PM (#9181402)
I think you're drawing a false correlation here between no-tip countries and poor service. There may be countries that don't have a custom of tipping and also have poor service, but there's very little reason to think that the two are actually related. For the same reason, there's very little to think that level of service in restaurants in the US is related to the expectation of the tip.

More generally, if a country seems to have poor restaurant service overall, that's a cultural thing. Introducing tipping would be unlikely to change it. To think otherwise is to think that waiters are only doing their job on the hope that they get a consideration, and that without that financial lure, they'd become lazy do-nothings. And that's both highly insulting and also illogical, because there's nothing unique about the job of being a waiter that would cause people to be lazy who would otherwise perform their job adequately in every other industry.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by vmarsy on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:40PM (#9181545)
That might be a false correlation indeed, however I disagree when you say: "there's very little to think that level of service in restaurants in the US is related to the expectation of the tip"

waiters with good work ethics will offer a great service no matter if there is a tip involved in the end or not. Those with poor work ethics however would care less about providing a good service. I didn't mean to sound insulting to waiters, a lot of them do a great job, but I think that for some waiters the financial lure is important.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by eridius on Wednesday March 11, 2015 @03:25AM (#9182977)
Except there's extremely little correlation between level of service provided and amount tipped.
Re:To tip or not to tip? by enneff on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:34PM (#9181515)
> The waiters have a huge incentive to give you a pleasant meal experience.

This is not true, in my experience. I have dined extensively in the USA and in many other countries and have not noticed any difference in the level of service provided.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by yodsanklai on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @06:49PM (#9181310)
> I personally feel dirty every time I tip

I understand what you mean. I used to find it odd. But in the US it's just part of the custom. My understanding is that tipping is expected and nobody really thinks about it. I consistently tip "tax times two" in New York, regardless of the service quality.

Re:To tip or not to tip? by scarecrowbob on Tuesday March 10, 2015 @07:23PM (#9181457)
In Texas, that would be pretty skimpy. Perosnally, I tip 25-30%, but things are cheap out here.

BTW, I also don't tip based on service quality; I generally won't go back to a place if I don't like the service, but it's kind of expected that you're tipping... to the point where it's an ethical mandate.