News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by drzaiusapelord on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:17AM (#8966549)
While this is certainly a step in the right direction, it displeases me that the FOSS community is so hostile to the ribbon-style UI MS uses in its office product. Its such a great concept that using LO is like stepping back into the Office 97 days. Frankly, I'd rather just pay every few years for a home edition of Office than do all the mental gymnastic needed to properly switch to LO.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by macspoofing on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:26AM (#8967055)
>Its such a great concept that using LO is like stepping back into the Office 97 days.

Maybe there's a reason why ribbon-style components haven't really taken off outside of core Microsoft products. I don't think the ribbon is actually that great-looking and I don't think it's that functional.

I'm also a fan of a LO forging it's own identity. For far to long Open Office strove to mimic MS Office in look-and-feel.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by MichaelGG on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:59PM (#8968133)
The Ribbon is amazing when you have lots and lots of commands, many which aren't always commonly used. Few programs approach the sheer number of commands. IIRC, in Office 2007 it was like 1300?

One of the main designers ran a blog explaining the design process. Even if you hate the ribbon, the explanation of how they came to it (heavily driven by telemetry, eye tracking studies, etc) is pretty cool. http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jensenh/archive/2008/03/12/the-story...

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by robwilliams on Thursday January 29, 2015 @04:17PM (#8968889)
The video is great: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/MIX/MIX08/UX09

I couldn't go back to taskbars and task panes after watching that.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by jamesmishra on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:27PM (#8968285)
Autodesk Inventor uses the Ribbon, and it makes doing 3D CAD extraordinarily intuitive.

I think the sibling comment is right---the ribbon makes a lot of sense when you have tons and tons of commands.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by e40 on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:21AM (#8966569)
That's your opinion. I don't like the new MS UI. In fact, paying for Office every few years means relearning a new UI, or at least relearning where everything is on the menus now. I find that incredibly frustrating and annoying.

My issue with LO is that it doesn't work on complex spreadsheets and powerpoints. I had spreadsheets corrupted and I just had to turn away from LO and go back to Office. I was much happier in LO, but alas I cannot stay.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by Someone1234 on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:16AM (#8966964)
> I don't like the new MS UI.

It was introduced 8 years ago. It is hardly new anymore.

While going to the ribbon 8 years ago was a struggle, I couldn't go back now. The context aware parts, realtime previews, and just organisation is too good.

Unfortunately LibreOffice now feels cluttered and overly busy by comparison. That's more because Libre/Open Office has stood still, largely based on Office 9x rather than trying anything new themselves.

I'm not saying they should copy everything Microsoft does. I am saying that they should evolve themselves and look at where the industry is headed. For example look at all of the UI concepts from the web and touch devices, they've introduced a number of new ideas none of which Libre/Open Office have adopted.

If I wanted to use LibreOffice on my Surface Pro, I couldn't, no touch UI at all. That's a little disappointing.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by worklogin on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:28AM (#8966613)
Did you try the ribbon for a week or two? I loathed it too. But then I got used to its workflow. It exposes a lot more options more intuitively than the current LO menu system.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by ricardonunez on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:04PM (#8967351)
I was a OF user for years before switching. I got Office 2010 because of a client and like you said after couple of weeks of trying was enough for me to like it. The workflow, the mouse over preview's in the ribbon and shortcuts is such an improvement. Now I can't see myself switching. One more note, money shouldn't be the reason not to switch, it's worth it if you use it for business. For personal use, Google (which I use too) or LO will do it.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by LordKano on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:29AM (#8967076)
I have been using it for three years. At work, I'm forced to use it. I still don't like it.

I can make due and get things done but when I have the choice, I go for a traditional UI. I prefer a regular Menu Bar.

I'm not saying that it sucks or that it shouldn't exist or that no one should use a ribbon. I'm just saying that I don't like ribbons and will continue to use standard interfaces.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by JustSomeNobody on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:15AM (#8966957)
I have to use Office at work. I have not liked the ribbon since it came out. It's not that I don't like new ideas. I am a SW dev and I embrace new. I change jobs every 6 mos just so I don't have to deal with old code, that's how much I like new things. The ribbon sucks. It mind numbingly sucks.

Note: Some of this was an exaggeration to drive home the point of how bad the ribbon interface sucks.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by andybak on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:33AM (#8967111)
Is it really worse than toolbar hell?

http://www.mlponies.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/05...

Icons without text labels work ONLY for frequently performed tasks with an obvious visual representation.

For everything else text and icons is probably optimal.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by scholia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:50AM (#8967252)
Do you also struggle with tabbed web pages and toolbars? If you can't use either of those, then I agree, you will have problems with the ribbon.

If you can use both of those -- and I'm certain you can -- then I don't see why something that simply combines tabs and toolbar icons is such problem.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by drzaiusapelord on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:29AM (#8966618)
I really didn't find the jump from 2007 to 2010 jarring. Even 2010 to 2013 was trivial for me. The ribbon changes have been minor since its introduction.

Obviously 2003 to 2007 was a big deal due to the introduction of the ribbon, but we're taking something that happened eight years ago.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by mtmail on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:31AM (#8966639)
Microsoft also started some FUD when registering a patent of their ribbon design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribbon_%28computing%29#Patent_...

Personally, FOSS or not, I simply don't like the ribbon style menu.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by jdlyga on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:21AM (#8966566)
Agreed. Didn't like the ribbon at first, but grew to find it very useful for Office.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by italophil on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:31AM (#8966637)
I like the ribbon, but it takes up too much vertical space on a 16:9 display, especially in Word. LO Sidebar uses the space better, and I can see more of the document at once.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by scholia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:41AM (#8966708)
Sure, but that's why you keep it closed almost all the time. For practical purposes, the ribbon takes up less space than the header on Notepad.

I've added my most used Word functions to the quick access bar, and some features are provided by the ghost menus that appear by the cursor, and I know a load of keyboard shortcuts. All of which means I very rarely open the ribbon. But when I do need it, it's orders of magnitude better than the rat's nest of menus and task panes we had before.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by tpeaton on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:36AM (#8966674)
You can double click the heading on top of the ribbon to collapse the whole thing.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by scholia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:44AM (#8966730)
Indeed, I think it's been collapsed by default for some time...
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by vetinari on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:20AM (#8967000)
You can collapse it. Then it looks like this: http://i.imgur.com/owymIV4.png
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by Zigurd on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:35AM (#8966664)
Not everyone likes ribbons, and "touch-first Office" is going to be the thing LO needs to aim for, though probably not by imitation. LO could be a big part of making Linux tablets useful.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by skrowl on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:41AM (#8966706)
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by elektronjunge on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:29AM (#8967075)
That's just a viewer. Getting documents to render and making a usable touch interface for editing documents are two very different things.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by chris_wot on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:38PM (#8967627)
It's a viewer because editing is disabled. Editing is coming :-)
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by Zigurd on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:59PM (#8967756)
Having a well-supported full-featured word processor on Android should be very popular. It could multiply the audience for Libre Office. Congratulations on a monumental effort.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by chengiz on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:10PM (#8968192)
I have come to dislike all manner of menu based interfaces. They are annoying as fuck unless you are well used to the program, and then they keep changing them with different versions. What I would like is a search as you type entry field, similar to the Windows 7 start menu. I type in "cro..." and cross reference shows up, then I click on it. And it'd have the option of keeping the commonly used ones nearby for easy click. I havent used any apps that do this, but would love to see something like this.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by makecheck on Thursday January 29, 2015 @03:10PM (#8968551)
The Mac OS X Help menu has this type of search, provided that all application commands are in menus.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by rz2k on Thursday January 29, 2015 @05:34PM (#8969336)
Use command-shift-/ (shortcut to help search) in OS X to find any menu items. It is nearly instantaneous.

If Windows doesn't have the same thing already built in, I'd guess there must be some add-ons that do the same thing.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by logn on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:11AM (#8966918)
The ribbon is stacked button bars. Navigating the ribbon is as unsettling at stacked tab bars. One nice thing about menus is that you peruse them without clicking. Ribbons force you to hunt and peck through the layers with the mouse. Further, when you have no idea where anything is, it's easier to read the menu labels versus scanning the disparate icons and hovering for tooltips.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by elektronjunge on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:26AM (#8967046)
Hit Alt the numbers and letters are the shortcuts for moving around the ribbon. That's actually one of my favorite parts of the ribbon, you are able to see what the shortcuts are very easily. The alt trick works on just about anything in windows.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by jsherer on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:36AM (#8966675)
I believe there was controversy in the FOSS community over Microsoft's patent application for the concept: https://www.google.com/patents/US8255828

I'd speculate that this patent application provided at least a small amount of hesitation towards the FOSS community implementing a similar interface.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by esfandia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:13PM (#8967435)
I have stayed on Office 2004 for Mac (running on Rosetta, and with the free docx compatibility plugin: I'm pathetic, I know) for the longest time on my laptop just to avoid having to use the ribbon (which I "experience" daily on my Windows machine unfortunately). Since my next Mac laptop won't have Rosetta I'll have to move on, and that means switching to LO, not upgrading Office.

And if LO ends up also using a ribbon, I'll move on to something else.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by yuhong on Thursday January 29, 2015 @03:12PM (#8968558)
I think you can turn off the Ribbon and show the Formatting toolbar in Office 2008 and 2011 for Mac. Yes, this is Mac-only.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by LordKano on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:18AM (#8966982)
I absolutely despise ribbon interfaces. They're a show stopper for me.

I am forced to use it at work, so there's nothing I can do about that but FLOSS is all about user empowerment and choice so I don't think I'll ever use it at home.

I'll stay with an old version of the package if upgrading means having the ribbon foisted upon me.

I like the idea of having an option to select a Ribbon interface or a Standard interface. That way, everyone can get what they like.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by chris_wot on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:11PM (#8967416)
What's wrong with the sidebar? If you think about it, most of your available unused screen real estate is on the side of the window, not the top... The sidebar, IMO, is rather more versatile than the ribbon anyway. (Thanks IBM!)
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by JadeNB on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:36AM (#8966671)
I downvoted. If you want to use the ribbon-style MS UI, then use MS products. I am glad to have a place to go that allows me to read and edit ubiquitous Office documents without having to be part of the Office eco-system. I agree that LibreOffice probably reminds more of old than of modern Office—I use both as little as possible, so don't keep up with the trends—but so what? To put it differently, why should Microsoft automatically be celebrated for monkeying with an input regime that worked? What is wrong with 'classic' software?
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by k-mcgrady on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:25AM (#8967041)
>> I downvoted.

Don't down vote people simply because you disagree with them. Just because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't mean it should be hidden from others. Use the down vote to hide comments that don't add to the discussion.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by JadeNB on Thursday January 29, 2015 @05:29PM (#8969311)
> Don't down vote people simply because you disagree with them. Just because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't mean it should be hidden from others.

To be honest, I got angry and clicked the downvote arrow without sufficient consideration, then thought (since I couldn't undo it) that the civil thing to do was to explain.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by anonbanker on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:32PM (#8967585)
Your personal moderation guidelines are admirable, but as they aren't in any way in-line with the moderation guidelines of the site, perhaps you should treat them like spiritual beliefs, and keep them to yourself?

EDIT: s/like your/like/g (unintentional ad-hominem)

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by k-mcgrady on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:02PM (#8967785)
Where did I mention spiritual beliefs??? As for these being my guidelines - they aren't. In my time using HN I've seen many, many people advocate that guideline. It might be useful to rethink your attitude when commenting your average karma is less than one.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by DanBC on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:53PM (#8968088)
There are a group of people who suggest that downvoting should only be used to hide comments that don't add to discussion.

PG has said that downvote to disagree is acceptable.

Can you point to anything in the guidelines or introductions or faqs about not downvotig for disagreement?

Since it's impossible to eliminate downvotig for disagreement you may as well just let it happen.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by k-mcgrady on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:17PM (#8968246)
There definitely isn't anything in the guidelines pointing towards either behaviour. I totally respect PG's opinion on it. I find though that HN fosters better discussion that other sites because unpopular opinions are just down votes - they're debated and not hidden. I could just let it happen but hopefully by contributing my thoughts on it those who down vote for disagreement will change.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by anonbanker on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:47PM (#8968046)
Yeah, I edited it, but understand I figured you were the kind of person who wouldn't barf all over a thread with your spiritual beliefs, and meant that part as a compliment.

I've advocated your same guidelines in the past, as they promote a healthy site/forum, but they are not HN's guidelines. PG has actually encouraged the antithesis of your guidelines in the past, so I'm compelled to tell you as much.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by k-mcgrady on Thursday January 29, 2015 @02:19PM (#8968259)
Sure that's fine. It's definitely not part of the guidelines (as you said) but I think it's also fine for me to advocate what I think leads to better discussions. It's one of the reasons I enjoy HN. Unlike other sites there is less hive mind. Unpopular opinions are debated rather than just hidden.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by anonbanker on Friday January 30, 2015 @01:49AM (#8970786)
If you're suggesting that we should, as a site, act against the guidelines and push for unofficial guidelines that promote better posting, I think this is a fantastic idea.
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by minimaxir on Thursday January 29, 2015 @12:59PM (#8967752)
Ad hominem attacks, however, are clearly not in-line with moderation guidelines. :P
Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by anonbanker on Thursday January 29, 2015 @01:40PM (#8968009)
Can you let me know where I made an ad-hominem? None was intended, but I'd like to correct that record.

Edit: ah. Everyone assumed I was talking about ggparent's spiritual beliefs. Amazing how a sole personal pronoun can alter intent.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by scholia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @10:51AM (#8966782)
Classic software worked just fine, in its day. I can still remember most of the classic WordStar commands. ;-)

The celebrations come when there are significant improvements, and there have been plenty of those. The (web-inspired) tabbed Office ribbon was a big one. Sorry they moved your cheese but the rest of the world isn't going to stop progressing even if you do.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by pbhjpbhj on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:06AM (#8966883)
>Classic software worked just fine, in its day. //

So, it doesn't work now?

The main question would be 'how much more productive one can be now than before?'. It would be nice if there were independent quantative studies on this - as word-processor use is a central part of most governments administrative functions I'd imagine that one can't move for the vast number of such studies ... lol.

I'm guessing that the UI changes between Wordstar and Office 2015 amount to a tiny change in the time needed both for training and useful production of word-processed documents. When it comes to spreadsheets I can see things have probably moved on - at least in speed of processing if nothing else.

I'd love to ask, of the top 100 functions used - how many weren't in office applications 5 years ago, 10 years ago? How has the average time per word in production of business letters changed (reduced?) over time and what specific [versions of] applications caused the greatest change?

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by scholia on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:35AM (#8967133)
I'd love to have answers to the same questions, but it will vary a lot according to what is being done and who is doing it.

If you're just typing simple text documents, the current Word is not going to save a massive amount of time over WordStar, but it will save some thanks to spelling corrections etc. And even a few seconds per hour per worker can represent a lot of value for large organizations.

If you're doing an essay or a brochure with headlines in different fonts, double-column text, embedded pictures, math equations etc, then the time savings will be massive. Just the ability to move a pic while text flows around it provides huge benefits.

When my son was in his early teens, I watched him use Microsoft Office to create complex documents that would have taken an IBM PROFS mainframe user weeks, or might have been impossible. His homework looked more professional than IBM's corporate documents.

I guess there are plenty of workers who use Word at the same level as they used WordStar, or who reckon that (back on topic!) LO is just as good. (Yes, LO is almost as good as Word if you just want to replace WordStar.)

But are those our criteria? Should we ignore the fact that people who have open minds and a willingness to explore (like children) can quickly and easily do new things that they can't?

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by vertex-four on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:25AM (#8967044)
Productivity isn't really the benchmark for LibreOffice, at least not until they're close to 100% compatible with the latest version of Office. Compatibility with everybody else's bizarre, overcomplicated, crappy files is the benchmark, and they use a hell of a lot more features than WordStar ever had.

I'd prefer to have a product with a crappy UI that can interoperate with everybody else seamlessly, than one with a great, simple UI that can't.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by DanBC on Thursday January 29, 2015 @05:26PM (#8969289)
Spreadsheets are the scary bit of software -- they're used for everything. And when I say "they" I mean "MS Excel" mostly.

There are groups that investigate the risks. EUSPRIG (European Spreadsheet Risk interest Group) has some great documents. http://www.eusprig.org/quotes.htm

I don't know if anyone is testing the main spreadsheet software with fuzzer-like tools; or if there are any mass audits of spreedsheets. Both would be useful.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by JadeNB on Thursday January 29, 2015 @05:23PM (#8969272)
> Sorry they moved your cheese but the rest of the world isn't going to stop progressing even if you do.

I was not complaining about progress (which, in this case, I would simply call change). I was merely responding to drzaiusapelord's complaint about LibreOffice not 'keeping up' with MS Office by expressing my appreciation for the existence of a more 'classical' alternative.

Re:LibreOffice 4.4, the Most Beautiful LibreOffice Ever by Argorak on Thursday January 29, 2015 @11:22AM (#8967010)
Upvoted. For explaining your downvote instead of just throwing it out there and mentioning a perfectly valid sentiment, even if I don't fully agree.