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Re:How You Know by nilkn on Monday December 15, 2014 @01:55PM (#8753601)
There's also a danger associated to this phenomenon. If the source of your mental model is later debunked, you may not realize that you need to revise your model precisely because you don't remember what your source was. You may even read about the debunking of the source but fail to draw the connection and realize the implications that it has for your own view of the world.

I think that perhaps very squishy subjects like politics are particularly vulnerable to this sort of disconnect, where a complex viewpoint is formed based on the hot topic of the day, and this viewpoint persists for years or decades even if the basis for its formation is completely forgotten.

Re:How You Know by arjunnarayan on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:01PM (#8753634)
This is an important corollary of Paul's essay that I wish he mentioned. Sometimes when you update your model of the world significantly, you still have a cache of previously computed facts that were computed using the old model. You have to clear out that cache and recompute with the new model, and that takes a significant amount of time. Often, rereading is a core part of that, since it forces you to revisit a lot of source material and recompute.
Re:How You Know by jayro on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:07PM (#8755019)
"Research shows that even when news reports have been retracted, and we are aware of the retraction, our beliefs are largely based on the initial erroneous version of the story. This is particularly true when we are motivated to approve of the initial account." - http://mindhacks.com/2011/05/04/why-the-truth-will-out-but-d...

Original Paper: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/16/3/190

Re:How You Know by aswanson on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:16PM (#8755445)
This is what makes so many people getting "breaking" sensational headlines from partisan blogs so dangerous. It becomes calcified reality for the vast majority of people; most folk are not hygenic with their belief structures. I actively seek disconfirmation of my beliefs, but most people seek reinforcement only.
Re:How You Know by jayro on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:30PM (#8755470)
Yep!

How facts backfire - Researchers discover a surprising threat to democracy: our brains

"In a series of studies in 2005 and 2006, researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger."

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/...

Re:How You Know by DustinCalim on Monday December 15, 2014 @09:20PM (#8755574)
This is the commitment and consistency effect.

The extreme cases can be found in cults where followers cling tighter to their beliefs once exposed.

A great example are the followers of Harold Camping, the Christian radio broadcaster who predicted the end of the world a few years ago, and kept re-predicting when it never came.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping

Re:How You Know by Gostport on Wednesday December 17, 2014 @12:09AM (#8761158)
But to complete the Camping story, and validate your argument (you still believe only the original, not the recant); Camping stopped after 2 failed dates, re-read his source material, and stated that he no longer believed that anyone could predict the end of the world. (Source: Netflix documentary on Camping)
Re:How You Know by aswanson on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:38PM (#8755494)
I've seen this anecdotally and it scares the shit out of me that it's been verified statistically. Thanks for sharing.
Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @09:59PM (#8755669)
This tends to happen to an exceptional degree when news has a strong emotional impact, which is of course what sensationalized headlines try to emphasize (whether out of partisanship or because emotionally charged information is more viral).

People's belief systems about the relative threats of terrorism and pedophiles is thus distorted by the media because the amount of time they spend watching terrorist attacks or episodes of "To Catch A Predator" is massively disproportionate to the actual level of risk posed by those kinds of things, and so especially is the emotional impact of that media.

Re:How You Know by kbart on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @06:41AM (#8756699)
That's one of the core principles of how propaganda works. And Russians are currently utilizing it perfectly.
Re:How You Know by tim333 on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @11:16AM (#8757731)
The Russians are utilizing it alright. However glancing at todays headlines eg. "Russian rouble in free-fall despite shock 17% rate rise" I'm not sure how well that's working out for them.
Re:How You Know by kbart on Wednesday December 17, 2014 @02:25AM (#8761428)
Their propaganda is targeted mainly domestically. Despite economical difficulties, Putin's approval rating still skyrockets, so I say it does work really well.
Re:How You Know by vshan on Monday December 15, 2014 @11:39PM (#8755873)
Reminds me of "The Black Swan".. (paraphrasing) Dis-confirmation reveals more than confirmation.
Re:How You Know by mherdeg on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:19PM (#8755064)
I've always wanted a short name for this phenomenon, where a lie takes hold and never leaves no matter how thoroughly it is debunked. Maybe the 'swift boat effect'?
Re:How You Know by blake8086 on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:57PM (#8755210)
Re:How You Know by diydsp on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:43PM (#8755774)
It's the importance of first impressions.
Re:How You Know by ademarre on Monday December 15, 2014 @09:29PM (#8755592)
Cached confirmation bias
Re:How You Know by scobar on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:13PM (#8754504)
"The same book would get compiled differently at different points in your life. Which means it is very much worth reading important books multiple times."

For me, this quote was the most powerful. I strongly and immediately agreed, yet I hadn't consciously considered the idea before. I now ask myself the question, "Which ones were the important books?" Some seem obvious, but I may have a deeply rooted worldview established a long time ago that needs to be reevaluated. I may have read books that added support to that worldview, and have since forgotten from where that support came.

I'm not very well read yet, but I have a question for those of you who are. What are some methods you utilize to remember which books are the important ones?

Edit: The comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8753656 contains a great idea. I agree that taking notes and writing a journal can be great solutions, but I don't often read the notes and entries I've written. A personal wiki that is searchable and contains references seems very interesting.

Re:How You Know by nikki93 on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:15PM (#8754785)
The nice thing about reading is that it's not very risky. You can pick up a book, jump around it, if it's interesting then continue else not. You don't have to plan ahead, just... Do.

When I look back, I find that most of the things I've learned that I enjoyed the most, am the most proud of, or have been most helpful, have in fact been accidental, and not a result of planning. I found so-and-so article then downloaded so-and-so package, experimented with it and realized it could benefit a certain project I was working on. Sorta like going down a Wikipedia hyperlink rabbit hole -- very in the moment, just chasing your will and not questioning yourself, doing simply what feels right.

Look back at your bookshelf and pick what feels right. If you start reading it and it feels wrong, then put it back. Being told what to read is annoying, so why would you do that to yourself? Do what you're doing when you playing music improvisationally, but with your life instead.

Re:How You Know by mirchiseth on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:40PM (#8754918)
One way to better internalize information/concepts for me has been reading a lot of books on the same topic. For example at different times in my life I have been interested in Finance, Behavioral Finance, Stoic Philosophy, GISes etc.I typically read about 4-5 books on the same topic and it helps me internalize the concepts better.
Re:How You Know by kaybe on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @09:43AM (#8757310)
Not just the concepts, it's also great to learn and keep the language specific to the topic. (Especially as a non-first-language speaker.)
Re:How You Know by sillysaurus3 on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:32PM (#8754596)
What types of books are important to you?
Re:How You Know by scobar on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:43PM (#8754929)
>What's "important"? (That may seem like a misguided question, but it's not.)

I'm not certain if this question was meant for me directly. If it was rhetorical, I apologize for misunderstanding and answering.

I prefer not to define "important" in this context to avoid excluding any definitions subjective to those who may respond to my question. That way, I may learn both what makes a book important to someone and tips on remembering which were important.

Edit: Now that I know the question was intended for me, I'll provide a little more depth to my answer.

The first thought I had when considering what makes a book important is how strongly it resonated within me, and the intensity of my emotions when reflecting upon what I've learned or how my perspective changed shortly after reading it. I know those stronger emotions may derive from a bias I had at one point in my life, and may no longer have.

Therefore, I can't help but think my definition is wrong because it's relative to the period in my life which I read the book. So some books that were important before may not be now. That's why I was curious to learn others' definitions of "important" books, and how to identify them for rereading.

Re:How You Know by walterbell on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:44PM (#8754645)
Re:How You Know by gatehouse on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:17PM (#8753746)
For an example of this, ask yourself: What is the world population?

The longer it has been since you checked, the further off the number will be.

https://www.google.com/search?q=world+population

Re:How You Know by jimbokun on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:50PM (#8754371)
My kids recently caught me claiming the world population is 6 billion people. Having learned the number more recently, they had the more accurate value.
Re:How You Know by shliachtx on Monday December 15, 2014 @09:25PM (#8755581)
While you make a good point (that one always needs to ensure the facts they know/take for granted are correct and haven't changed), it doesn't seem that is what he is referring to.

The need to reread and reconsider books, ideas, etc. is not to check if the facts have changed, but to make sure you didn't miss a point because of lack of knowledge or bias.

For example (on a very basic level), I find that if I reread a book on a programming language after using it for some time I notice things which I missed on a previous reading or wasn't able to appreciate due to lack of familiarity with the language. The same can apply to history - or any other study - where one only appreciates certain details after understanding the larger picture and surrounding events.

For this reason there lies an advantage in both rereading the same book (immediately or after some time) by itself and reading after studying more on the topic from other sources.

Re:How You Know by argumentum on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:43PM (#8755148)
Unless you've checked the number enough to have realized a pattern (in this case a growth rate).
Re:How You Know by marcosdumay on Monday December 15, 2014 @09:05PM (#8755545)
People don't grasp exponential growth[1]. That pattern will be useful for a very short time, and then you are wrong again.

And then, when you finally accept that you don't grasp it and start calculating with a formal growth rate, the growth rate suddenly changes.

[1] Nobody does. Some people know they don't, some are completely naive, the others lie to themselves. The first group have a chance of dealing correctly with it.

Re:How You Know by Houshalter on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @04:42AM (#8756450)
Population growth isn't exponential. The rate of population growth has been steadily declining since the 1960's, and I believe the world population is expected to level out around 9 billion people in a few decades.
Re:How You Know by palimpsests on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @03:13AM (#8756269)
wait, did you just cite yourself?
Re:How You Know by drdeca on Thursday December 18, 2014 @01:05AM (#8766190)
I think that's just meant to be a footnote.
Re:How You Know by noonespecial on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:49PM (#8755176)
Worse still many of these are formed in childhood from large misunderstandings. I'm constantly finding myself "closing out" old bogus lines of thought decades old.
Re:How You Know by bentcorner on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @12:30PM (#8758103)
I've argued with grown adults about childhood facts learned in error. It's frustrating, although I'm certain I have beliefs of my own that are still incorrect.
[deleted]
Re:How You Know by MichaelGG on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:58PM (#8754987)
You're overestimating the difficulty of Facebook by over a factor of 50. Not to mention similar systems already existed. In fact, this is the first time I remember someone claiming that actually building the FB initial product was challenging (versus timing, acting on the idea, marketing, etc.)

Edit: parent comment was saying it's so much easier to with work with inexperienced people, and that an experienced "corporate" dev couldn't make Facebook if all the screens were given to them.

Re:How You Know by amatix on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:41PM (#8753910)
An article by Ted Chiang: The Truth of Fact, the Truth of Feeling -- talks about some of these issues from a couple of different & interesting perspectives which I found really intriguing. One of which being a thought exercise about what it would mean to have the ability to accurately replay everything we'd ever seen or done. And how two people who went through the same experiences can come out with vastly different memories and interpretations. It's a good read :)

http://subterraneanpress.com/magazine/fall_2013/the_truth_of...

Re:How You Know by fumar on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:55PM (#8754004)
The idea of replaying moments of our lives reminds me of a Black Mirror episode from Season 1. "Set in an alternative reality where most people have a 'grain' implanted behind their ear which records everything they do, see or hear. This allows memories to be played back either in front of the person's eyes or on a screen, a process known as a 're-do'." Without giving too much away, the episode explores how new solutions to human-problems create unforeseen issues.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entire_History_of_You

Re:How You Know by michaelochurch on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:11PM (#8754108)
I found that one to be one of the less dystopian episodes.

My explanation is linked because I don't want to spoil the episode. (Also spoils 15 Million Merits.) http://paste.lisp.org/display/144706

Re:How You Know by randallsquared on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:41PM (#8754923)
Phrasing to avoid spoilers for Black Mirror...

I think that the efficiency of technology shown in TV shows and movies shouldn't be assumed to imply something about the world therein, unless it's explicitly called out in the work itself. The writers are much more likely to have gone with something because it sounded cool than because there was a sound technological reason for it. The bit in the matrix where someone refers to someone else as "copper-top" is an example, I think.

Re:How You Know by spb on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @06:27AM (#8756671)
To address your point about Fifteen Million Merits, the way I had the excercise bikes framed coming into it, the "system" being presented is a prison (a microcosm of the larger society outside), and riding the bikes is part of their punishment/sentence.

This is what the episode all the more disturbing to me. This would be the far-west's answer to a demand for less retribution-oriented prison designs, like a virus becoming less deadly so that it can infect more people. (How many on Hacker News would tout the virtues of free services as "you only have to watch ads, you're not forced to buy anything"?) You have "free choice", but it is only within a heavily curated model of illusory flavors; yet the vast majority of prisoners in this system are content, even euphoric, within it.

As Eddie Izzard put it:

> I know a lot of people who'd love to be under house arrest! They bring you your food... "Just stay here? Oh, all right. (laconically) Have you got any videos?" You know, you just sit there all day...

Re:How You Know by rhetdyne on Monday December 22, 2014 @01:14AM (#8782220)
My take on the role of excercise bikes in the Fifteen Million Merits episode is that they're more of an abstract representation of what is most likely a meaningless job.

It's possible that the bikes are used to generate electricity, but that would be very inefficient and, also, not a very creative interpretation. Maybe they're part of a fitness experiment - the participants have an exercise regiment that they keep and are being monitored for the effects the excercise has on them. In return, they are provided with lodgings and food. After all, people have been paid for weirder things in modern times. I can think of a few more scenarios where the bikes are a part of some data gathering/social experiment thing.

Overall, I think, Black Mirror has a trait that distinguishes good fiction from bad - it manages in each episode to create a world that is abstract and unfamiliar enough to play by its own rules, but at the same time, allows parrallels to be drawn between the fictional world and our reality.

Re:How You Know by spb on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @04:39AM (#8756440)
Came to add that (US) Netflix subscribers can watch this episode right now at http://www.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70264856&trkid=20010...
Re:How You Know by dpweb on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:15PM (#8754144)
The movie strange days where experiences are recorded on a personal recorder and can be played back although that movie was from 1999 so an updated version would have those experiences transmitted to the cloud..
Re:How You Know by nl on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:00PM (#8755406)
This is SO good (though it's a short story, not an article).

Ted Chiang is always worth reading. I think he captures the nuances of the impact of technology better than any other writer I've read.

Re:How You Know by ColinDabritz on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:09PM (#8753680)
Over time, my 'urban legend' bullshit detector has been refined, and is much improved from earlier in my life.

I have, on a few occasions, found myself relating some 'fact' or 'story' and realized immediately that it was likely an urban legend. Both times, the detector was right, and a quick search cleared it up.

I wonder if there is a good way to intentionally 'paw through' your repository on purposes, and apply your life experience to them on purpose.

Re:How You Know by skaplun on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:23PM (#8753795)
very interesting
Re:How You Know by not_that_noob on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:20PM (#8753771)
In practice, people rarely if ever revise their mental model as the world around them changes. Which is why a younger generation without this baggage inevitably rises to supplant the older one.
Re:How You Know by nl on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:53PM (#8753990)
"It's not that old theories are disproved, their supporters just die out".

The best people adapt to new information, no matter their age.

Re:How You Know by napoleond on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:47PM (#8754345)
The best people do, indeed. I'm still fairly young, but I'm starting to understand that "adapting to new information" is not something that happens by accident. "Continuous learning" is a lifestyle thing; I've never had to think about it. But forcing myself to re-evaluate things that I already thought I knew--that is a conscious and often difficult process.
Re:How You Know by jakobegger on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:03PM (#8755004)
The hardest part about this is accepting that you might be wrong. That your entire world view might be wrong, or one-sided. We humans have this uncanny ability to justify anything we just did, or said. It takes a lot of conscious effort to accept that the other person might be right.

But only if you truly realise that you are not infallible, can you learn new things, and continue to grow.

Re:How You Know by nl on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:51PM (#8755517)
"Strong Opinions, Weakly Held."

Also, quotes are a good way of appearing wise.

Re:How You Know by poppup on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:38PM (#8753890)
Perhaps this is the function of conflict (ideally nonviolent and hopefully led by smart people), to speed up the process of change by injecting humanity's shared model(s) with new ideas. When older models become problematic, people have a duty to overturn them, toppling them like tables outside a synagogue.

"The extent of and continuing increase in inequality in the United States greatly concerns me. … It is no secret that the past few decades of widening inequality can be summed up as significant income and wealth gains for those at the very top and stagnant living standards for the majority. I think it is appropriate to ask whether this trend is compatible with values rooted in our nation’s history, among them the high value Americans have traditionally placed on equality of opportunity." Janet Yellen

Re:How You Know by dhimes on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:34PM (#8754264)
There is something to what you say, unfortunately. Here's an interesting article from the New Yorker about it.

http://www.newyorker.com/science/maria-konnikova/i-dont-want...

Re:How You Know by marincounty on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:27PM (#8755465)
I wouldn't say the younger generation doesn't have baggage. As a young man I had a lot of fears I don't have now. I think the biggest advantage to being young is taking on risk, besides the obviousness of physical strength, stamina, truly original thought(which seems to evaporate in the end of your twenties?). So yes, as young man I took on risk; some out of naviete, some out dump luck, some because I truly thought it was a good idea. As a poor youth, I realized I couldn't screw up too much/or be too risky. My friends who had wealthy parents could afford to take on a lot more risk than me, or my poor friends. There lies the rub--most wealthy kids have so many more opportunities than poor, or middle class kids. I just can't leave the unseen advantage wealth brings to a string of people and their spawn. In the county I grew up in I can count on two hands the kids who went on to be millionaires. They were all from wealthy families. So yes, the young do supplant the "older one", but they usually had a lot of help. An example is our current Luitentant Governer(you can guess which state). I saw his family pick up one failure after another, and he just might be president of the United States one day?
Re:How You Know by programmarchy on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:15PM (#8754516)
This is why it is imperative to build your model up from first principles. Before adding anything to your model, it should be filtered through proper logic. This makes it easier to build stable models without contradiction in the first place, and also makes it easier to follow a chain of reasoning about a complex viewpoint back to first principles. "Philosophizing in midstream" leads to incoherent thought with unchecked premises.

The method of loci, for building/encoding hierarchical "memory palaces", works well for remembering key ideas or facts and building upon them to compose your models. Also, using software like "The Brain" [1] and other mind mapping tools are useful aids for organizing information so you can easily go back to remember.

[1] http://www.thebrain.com

Re:How You Know by nikki93 on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:44PM (#8754640)
But what if parts of your model are based on 'feeling'? Like improvisation in music, for example, or art. There is no 'filtering through logic' here -- of course there is some element of technique, such as mixing of colors or how you hit a drum -- but ultimately it is all about a human element that is complex and hard to convert into logical statements.

It seems as if becoming proficient at something indeed involves moving more knowledge into intuition, same as how you had to purposely look at the rear view mirror and watch cars closely as you learned to drive but now it becomes something of intuition. You had to pay special care to syntax and to grammar initially, but now all of that is habit and you can concentrate on the 'design' of a program, or the 'characters' and 'themes' in a piece of literature.

What if these 'logical arguments' we make for things are simply retrofitted justifications on top of our feelings? Pro-choice 'feels right,' but of course that won't fly in court and so I'll make up some argument for it, becoming disingenuous thus not just to others but even to myself, distancing myself from who I am and causing some amount of strife within. I hope to think I am a perfect rational thinker, but am I really? I am driven by drives, by passions. Maybe I should become aware of this and proceed, acknowledge the person inside me rather than attempt to destroy it with reason. Maybe I should just stop and listen and stop trying to rationalize, both to others and to myself, stop thinking, open my eyes and see life in HD.

Re:How You Know by walterbell on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:51PM (#8754673)
A 1990 quote from Heinz von Foerster, http://web.stanford.edu/group/SHR/4-2/text/foerster.html

"Only those questions that are in principle undecidable, we can decide.

Why?

Simply because the decidable questions are already decided by the choice of the framework in which they are asked, and by the choice of rules of how to connect what we call "the question" with what we may take for an "answer." In some cases it may go fast, in others it may take a long, long time, but ultimately we will arrive, after a sequence of compelling logical steps, at an irrefutable answer: a definite Yes, or a definite No.

But we are under no compulsion, not even under that of logic, when we decide upon in principle undecidable questions. There is no external necessity that forces us to answer such questions one way or another. We are free! The complement to necessity is not chance, it is choice! We can choose who we wish to become when we have decided on in principle undecidable questions.

This is the good news, American journalists would say. Now comes the bad news.

With this freedom of choice we are now responsible for whatever we choose! For some this freedom of choice is a gift from heaven. For others such responsibility is an unbearable burden: How can one escape it? How can one avoid it? How can one pass it on to somebody else?"

Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:12PM (#8755710)
> This is why it is imperative to build your model up from first principles.

The main problem with this approach (I'll call it the Cartesian approach because it was most famously used by Descartes) is that human beings are less than 100% reliable at logical reasoning. If you make an error anywhere in your chain of reasoning, your conclusions are going to be off and there's not going to be any way to check them. It's just like writing 10,000 lines of code without ever actually compiling it, let alone testing it. You also develop a sort of foolish confidence about the correctness of your own beliefs, which makes it even easier to be wrong. If you make enough wrong turns, you become Ayn Rand.

That's why empiricism is so good. It's not that empiricists don't make mistakes too, but when they do, they find that they are surprised by concrete facts that they observe, and know when to go back and reevaluate.

Another helpful trick is to understand that there are degrees between 0% and 100% confidence. I can entertain an proposition as being possible or likely rather than simply true or false based on the recognition that I have incomplete information. If you tried to take this approach you couldn't derive anything logically because you would just have a multitude of possibilities in front of you. Formal logic only works with statements that are 100% true. Otherwise you're stuck with Bayesian reasoning, which is even more mentally taxing to derive information from.

(Or, as an alternative response)

Please derive for me, from "first principles", why it is imperative to build one's mental model from first principles.

Re:How You Know by wwweston on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:42PM (#8754629)
> This is why it is imperative to build your model up from first principles

That sounds... time consuming.

> "Philosophizing in midstream"

Since you're picking axioms/first principles, isn't it all philosophizing in midstream to one degree or another?

Re:How You Know by tdaltonc on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:51PM (#8754959)
It's known to be impossible to create a consistent and axiomatic set of knowledge [1].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_t...

Re:How You Know by eli_gottlieb on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @03:43AM (#8756327)
That theorem only applies to deductive formal proof systems.
Re:How You Know by robrenaud on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:16PM (#8754794)
Do you really follow this? It seems like someone following these rules would rarely be wrong, but that they'd be paralyzed by the cost of making decisions.
Re:How You Know by axlprose on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:09PM (#8755023)
From my own experience and observing others, that indeed seems to be the logical conclusion of it, and it's something that I see happen a lot. "Analysis Paralysis" a friend of mines likes to call it. It can be mildly annoying at times, but it seems like something that a lot of people aren't able to help doing. Or at least not without a lot of practice and experience.
Re:How You Know by pimlottc on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @04:13AM (#8756387)
> "Analysis Paralysis" a friend of mines likes to call it.

This is such a common occurrence in board gaming that it's frequently abbreviated as just "AP".

http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Glossary#toc9

Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:19PM (#8755725)
Somebody following those rules could easily be wrong. Even smart, logically trained people make errors in logic all the time. That's why they introduce bugs when they try to write code, or errors into mathematical proofs or philosophical systems that sometimes don't get pointed out for years.
Re:How You Know by etrautmann on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:01PM (#8753633)
Great point - a possible explanation for a wide range of phenomenologically bizarre viewpoints (e.g.: anti-vaccers, birthers, chem-trails, creationists, etc.)
Re:How You Know by VLM on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:39PM (#8754302)
Most of your examples are social membership tests. You have to publicly say "XYZ" to join the club, where "XYZ" doesn't necessarily mean anything, but joining the club does. Like saying Abracadabra to open a door.

(Spoiler alert don't read till the 26th)

Do you believe in Santa? I believe in Santa. Oh how nice you also believe in Santa. Aren't we all happy members of our club? It would be so antisocial for someone to say Santa doesn't exist, because then how would we tell who is in our club? This is the best club ever. Santa? Who's that? We just talk about him to pledge allegiance to each other, we don't actually care about fat dudes in red suits.

Re:How You Know by slayed0 on Monday December 15, 2014 @05:18PM (#8754801)
Can you expand on this? Are you suggesting that most of the people who say these things publicly don't actually believe them but are instead just trying to fit in to a certain social group?
Re:How You Know by snori74 on Monday December 15, 2014 @07:58PM (#8755400)
I'm not VLM, but yes, peer-pressure in another guise. Just think about your attitudes and beliefs on (a) handgun ownership, (b) creationism and (c) Israel. It's very likely that if you're in a social group with strong homogeneous view on one of these items, that there will be a matching "party line" on the others - even though they're completely unrelated. Chances are low that you'll argue the point, you'll probably just stay quiet - but many people will enthusiastically take that party line as their own.
Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:23PM (#8755735)
I think that's just groupthink. People tend to act on their beliefs about things like vaccines, Israel, and handgun ownership.

Of course, it's one of the earliest results in psychology that social conformity has an influence on people's beliefs, even on readily accessible questions like whether line A is longer or shorter than line B. To me, if somebody professes a belief, acts on that belief, and works to convince others of that belief, then they effectively hold that belief.

Re:How You Know by eaurouge on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:54PM (#8754390)
There's always a danger that you'll introduce a bug in your code at some point, right? If you 'pull' from a lot or sources, at some point one of those sources will introduce a bug. But if you have a lot of high quality committers (book authors) and you continue to pull (read) from those sources, you stand a good chance of discovering and squashing these bugs eventually. In fact, as your code (mind) matures, you start to develop procedures to test unproven pull requests (theories/ideas) before merging and committing. You'll be especially careful of unknown authors or authors that have introduced buggy code in the past, while possibly giving full commit access to authors you trust.
Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:24PM (#8755741)
You know this is just confirmation bias, right? This is another way of saying you're going to increase your confidence in sources that already agree with your existing mental model, which is the exact problem you're trying to solve!
Re:How You Know by icebraining on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:52PM (#8754678)
"You can take my life, but you will never take my .gitignore"?
Re:How You Know by drcomputer on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:10PM (#8754104)
I wouldn't call that a danger. I would call that being human. We all have models of the world that deviate in some ways from one another, otherwise we would all have identical minds, identical environments and origins, identical heritages, identical ways of interpreting information, and identical ways of composing information into new creations.

Making an erroneous assumption or a mistake can mean that a particular sentiment is expressed "incorrectly", but that doesn't mean it's existence is useless. It may prove to be very useful eventually.

The idea that mental models can be incorrect by being compared to other mental models is a strange concept to me. It requires assumptions that can not be proven in their entirety.

Re:How You Know by mentos on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:58PM (#8754423)
>>It may prove to be very useful eventually.

Even if accidentally.

Re:How You Know by fsloth on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:42PM (#8754318)
"I think that perhaps very squishy subjects like politics are particularly vulnerable to this sort of disconnect, where a complex viewpoint is formed based on the hot topic of the day, and this viewpoint persists for years or decades even if the basis for its formation is completely forgotten."

Not only disconnect: What I've read of psychological studies indicate the mind amplifies those facts that support it's current model of the world and actively ignores those that do not.

Which goes a long way to explain why it's nearly pointless to argue with fanatics of one kind or another.

Re:How You Know by lifeisstillgood on Monday December 15, 2014 @02:31PM (#8753847)
In the analogy, it seems more likely that a mistaken short in the wiring is created, than we compile and lose the code all the time. Most of us have good ideas of the provenance of our prejudices (I am pretty sure I can remember which side of most debates arguments I get from Fox Mews and which from the BBC, even if the specifics are hazy.)

There are always areas where we do forget the provenance. In my case I stood up amoung friends in my thirties and announced that Ice cream was made from seaweed. After a few blank stares I remembered my father explaining to a much younger self on the beach that I did not want an ice cream - because they were made from that horrible floppy green muck. And he did not have to make a half mile trek back up the beach. Yet that "fact" and it's provenance stayed at the back of my brain for twenty years.

But even so the provenance was quickly recovered. I am not convinced we easily lose our source code. We can usually point to the module or package even if the line numbers are hazy.

But trauma does rewire us, and quickly, and is not to be discounted - I just think it is not the normal course of events.

Re:How You Know by jonah on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:16PM (#8754155)
While it seems your father had his reason for informing you of that fact at that particular time, he was likely correct[0]. ;)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrageenan

Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:29PM (#8755747)
I've accidentally gotten my wife into trouble this way because one of my hobbies is to tell elaborate lies and she can't always tell when I'm doing it.
Re:How You Know by mathattack on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:45PM (#8754331)
"Let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument." :-)

Many times we tune out feedback that isn't congruent with our worldview and get locked in. That's why it's good to follow Paul's lead on rereading and revisiting. Sometimes it's hard to remember the anecdote or story that steers us, but finding it again allows us to question it. There was a specific retelling of a Vonnegut (of all authors) story that got me interesting in technology. Rereading the story in it's original form 20+ years later allowed me to understand the first better.

Re:How You Know by flipside on Monday December 15, 2014 @07:39PM (#8755343)
There's an opportunity to outsource mental models to software in a similar way to how we've outsourced basic math to calculators and basic facts to search engines.

A benefit to a digital mental model is that it could be updated based on new data independent of the owner which has all kinds of (possibly disturbing) implications.

Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:20PM (#8755730)
I'd love to see the bug reports for that.

"Your program says I should now believe that it's morally acceptable to kill infants. I don't agree with its reasoning."

Re:How You Know by tmaly on Tuesday December 16, 2014 @07:42AM (#8756850)
This reminds me of something I read of Objectivism. The idea that you revise your model of your knowledge as you learn new things. It seems like a difficult task given how our minds work.
Re:How You Know by noobermin on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:42PM (#8755504)
I'm curious, do you think it would be beneficial to make a list of where you got your ideas from? Like a sort of list of citations for your model of the world.
Re:How You Know by lazyant on Monday December 15, 2014 @04:00PM (#8754432)
It's even worse (at least with emotional political opinions); when confronted with adversarial data we tend to become more entrenched in our positions.
Re:How You Know by InclinedPlane on Monday December 15, 2014 @08:26PM (#8755463)
That's the fight or flight response. We view intellectual questioning of positions we hold as an attack on our person. Our rationality goes out the window, our aggression ramps up, and it becomes impossible to back down. It's the main causative agent for flame wars.
Re:How You Know by philwelch on Monday December 15, 2014 @10:25PM (#8755742)
pg wrote about that as well: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html
Re:How You Know by salimane on Monday December 15, 2014 @03:58PM (#8754422)
That's why, always checking for the origin of things is very valuable, asking why we currently do things the way we do them :)
Re:How You Know by argumentum on Monday December 15, 2014 @06:45PM (#8755161)
He did mention Stephen Fry discovering a "bug" in his mind related to childhood trauma.