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Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by gdilla on Friday October 17, 2014 @01:02PM (#8471962)
I'm an AirBnB host in NYC, and this report makes clear that there is rampant abuse in NYC by landlords acting as hotels. This drives up rents for residents as it reduces supply of long term housing and inflates landlords expectations on what they can charge. I like Airbnb for how well it enables buyers and sellers to come together and transact. I don't know what a good solution is. Either charge hotel tax or get rid of hotel taxes for actual hotels so they can better compete on price? I don't know.

I'm not sure Airbnb is doing themselves any favors by not cooperating with the AG, however. The 'Commercial Users" are operating secret hotels and getting away with it.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by o0-0o on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:03PM (#8472401)
I live in Manhattan below a previous AirBNB host that was thrown out of our building by management. Her guests flooded my apartment twice, causing thousands of dollars of damage to my property. How do I go about getting reimbursed for these items?
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by patio11 on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:22PM (#8472527)
Ask your landlord to reimburse you. If they do not, hire a lawyer and do what they tell you to. The first thing they'll do is write your landlord a letter. That will probably be the end of it.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by HeyLaughingBoy on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:20PM (#8472509)
Renter's insurance? If you have it make a claim. They will likely pay, then turn around and sue either the building owner or the apartment tenant where the water came from.

Otherwise, you're probably SOL. Could try taking her to small claims court, though.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by smackfu on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:16PM (#8472477)
Well, from your perspective, I don't see why it matters whether the damage to you was done by your neighbor or by your neighbor's guests. It's still the neighbor's responsibility.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by tptacek on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:21PM (#8472514)
It does matter. Revolving-door short term tenants drastically increase the risk of incidents like this, as you'd find out immediately if you tried to insure against them. Renters are routinely required to carry some degree of insurance. If Airbnb adoption meant near-universal requirements to carry punishing insurance coverage, that's yet another externality they'd be inflicting on the market.

(I like Airbnb but see how fraught it is, too).

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by mbreese on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:43PM (#8472937)
It does matter, but less to you and more to your insurance company.

It's more like the your renter's insurance company would sue the neighbor's company for a claim. However, since the neighbor was renting out the apartment as an Airbnb property, then their standard renter's insurance was probably invalid at the time. So now your insurance company would sue the neighbor directly and may not be able to pay.

The long term implications are that renter's insurance costs will go up for everyone in that market.

I've long thought that the biggest problem with Airbnb wasn't the tax issue, or even landlords abusing the system and running mini-hotels. It was insurance. I suspect that none of the hosts who aren't physically present (and even some who are) are violating their insurance policy, and if there is a HOA or other sort of shared space, that insurance policy would also be violated.

If hosts had to actually pay the true costs of insurance, the cost savings between traditional hotels and Airbnb would be much smaller. Now, if Airbnb actually offered the insurance to the hosts, or maintained it themselves, that would be something. But that would be fraught with fraud issues over such a wide market.

But insurance isn't a sexy topic...

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by tptacek on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:48PM (#8472955)
The problem is that nobody can predict whether a tenant is going to abuse their lease to host short-term tenants for money. When their insurer refuses to pay up because they lied about how they use their space, there won't be any recourse through the tenant; bankrupt is bankrupt. The way around this is to require tenants to obtain expensive coverage on the presumption that they'll Airbnb the space.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by anigbrowl on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:33PM (#8472599)
In the latter case, the neighbor has a strong economic incentive to treat lawsuits by aggrieved neighbors as a cost of doing business and simply build it into the rental price charged to guests - which might be quite feasible if renting out a sufficiently desirable location.

The cost to the aggrieved neighbor of launching multiple legal actions is proportionately greater since the neighbor's recovery necessarily takes place in arrears and is not supported by a stream of guest rental income. Absent an ability to recover punitive as well as economic damages, the rentier may well find it more profitable to persist.

This leads to an interesting application of the Coase theorem, of course. If you find that your neighbor is renting out on AirBnB and you have a serious anticipation of economic loss, you are in a good position to bring your neighbor to the negotiation table and solicit compensation up front - in other words, to demand your neighbor buy you off for the predictable inconvenience. This idea will seem anathema to many entrepreneurs but it has the economic advantage of predictability, as the long-term economic cost will be the same while the transaction costs may end up being lower.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by JohnTHaller on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:19PM (#8472844)
Sadly, you likely don't. AirBNB's "insurance" doesn't cover anything except the host's possessions. It doesn't cover building damage or damage to others' posessions. So, it's not true commercial insurance despite the fact that a business is being run. And transient renters statistically do a lot more damage more often than long-term (12 months or more) renters.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by AJ007 on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:15PM (#8472826)
I would suggest NYC work harder on enforcing those rules which apply to landlords which relate specifically to safety -- I've seen some pretty astonishing abuse.

One of the shortfalls from Airbnb, Uber, and other human to human services is that their initial growth & design comes from early adapter use. I can't provide hard facts but the people who use things earlier tend to be a little smarter and a little saner. This observation is based on what happens to online communities as they expand.

Airbnb has built a system, when used the way it was originally intended, with well meaning hosts and gracious renters everything works great. As it transitions to a mass market product dynamics change. You have people gaming the system, hosting sex parties, attacking you with hammers (bad joke), etc. Government & city regulations have a lot to do with managing the "riff raff." Taxes, revenue, rent, these things matter to a lesser degree than personal safety.

Airbnb, Uber, and all of these other sharing services need to think really hard about this. If you are launching your AirBNB/Uber for X service, and your early adapters are already the mass market, acquired through ad campaigns. Watch the hell out.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by bradleyjg on Friday October 17, 2014 @01:44PM (#8472255)
Do you rent out an entire apartment in a building with 3 or more units for 30 or fewer days at a time? If so, you are one of those people participating in rampant abuse.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by gdilla on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:46PM (#8472678)
Uh, no... I live in a one bedroom apt and rent out my bedroom while I take the couch. If i'm present in the apt, it's perfectly legal (as long as the stays are less than 28 days).
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by baddox on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:10PM (#8472440)
What's special about the numbers 3 and 30?
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by bradleyjg on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:21PM (#8472515)
They were chosen as part of the legislative process to balance competing concerns. There's a line drawing problem involved in going from tourist hotels to furnished leases, but that doesn't mean that the two aren't distinct phenomenons any more than similar definitional problems mean there's no such thing as baldness.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by soneca on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:20PM (#8472507)
I am going to NYC next year, planning to use AirBnb, but I would like to stay away of these professional hosts that actually run illegal hotels whose neighbors hate them.

If you can contact me, I would love to consider your place among my options. It is very hard to know if it is a "legit" host or a professional one through the site only, let alone find out the acceptance of the neighbors.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by pyrophane on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:37PM (#8472623)
Actually, it is pretty easy to find a "legit" Airbnb listing. Just look for listings where the host is renting a room in an apartment where they will be present during your stay. Otherwise, the listing is almost guaranteed to be for an illegal hotel.
Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by soneca on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:57PM (#8472751)
Is it that hard to be the case where a host is on vacations and want to make some money from his few weeks out?

When I first heard of AirBnb that was the case I thought when it made the most sense.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by mjmahone17 on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:21PM (#8472850)
In NYC, that would still be illegal. One of the long-term tenants of the apartment must be staying in the apartment with any short-term guests.

If you have a 2-bedroom apartment, one roommate could host while the other goes on vacation. But they can't both be gone at the same time.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by josu on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:19PM (#8472501)
If there is demand for staying at "secret hotels" why should the regulator ban that? The only problem that I see is that this income might not be currently being taxed. Just get Airbnb to share their data with the IRS and problem solved.

And if hotels go out of business, good riddance. If consumers rather pay a bit less and stay in a house or an apartment, why should the regulator want to mess with their preferences?

As of:

>This drives up rents for residents as it reduces supply of long term housing and inflates landlords expectations on what they can charge.

Take down hotels and build apartment buildings. If as you say the demand is there, the market should take care of it. Although hotels tend to be more space efficient, so new apartment buildings could not be enough to completely offset the price surge.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by opendais on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:02PM (#8472770)
> If there is demand for staying at "secret hotels" why should the regulator ban that?

The problem is they are secret from the regulators too and aren't following the regulations.

> Take down hotels and build apartment buildings. If as you say the demand is there, the market should take care of it. Although hotels tend to be more space efficient, so new apartment buildings could not be enough to completely offset the price surge.

That isn't how it works. The market doesn't magically fix things when the financial incentive is towards the decision without the "social good" of providing housing to residents. Harmful externalities are something the market blindly ignores because capital can just ignore the damage.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by josu on Friday October 17, 2014 @03:11PM (#8472806)
>The problem is they are secret from the regulators too and aren't following the regulations.

Which regulations?

>Harmful externalities are something the market blindly ignores because capital can just ignore the damage.

What harmful externalities apply to this case?

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by opendais on Friday October 17, 2014 @04:29PM (#8473170)
Read the OP.

The "secret hotels" are not following residential fire codes, in numerous instances. Which is a danger to themselves and others.

> What harmful externalities apply to this case?

Shifting housing supply from long term housing [e.g. apartments with 6+ month leases] to hotels/AirBnB rentals [short term housing], reduces long term housing stock and raises prices for residents.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/19/nyregion/poverty-rate-in-c...

20% of NY is below the poverty line. Raising the cost of a basic necessity is really corporate welfare [because it increases costs for the government]. Much like the issue with minimum wage:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-w...

You really have 3 choices:

1) Deprive people of basic necessities.

2) Raise taxes on Capital [because Labor can't afford it, they are the one that would be subsidized...] to subsidize the basic necessities for the poor. [Hmm, seems alot of AirBnb folks are trying to dodge taxes...making them share data with the IRS/State Tax boards is nice but that doesn't make money appear out of thin air].

3) Set the rules in such a way that there is enough long term housing stock that upward price pressure is kept in line with inflation and let the market sort the rest of it out.

Now you can argue I'm wrong and there is some magical 4th option [e.g. "Increased spending by consumers/capital due to more economic efficiency from using AirBNB"] the problem with this is, without a study proving this claim you don't really have a leg to stand on.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by josu on Friday October 17, 2014 @06:28PM (#8473713)
>The "secret hotels" are not following residential fire codes, in numerous instances. Which is a danger to themselves and others.

If this is true, this problem transcends Airbnb. If the building doesn't comply with those does, it doesn't matter what it is being used for.

>Shifting housing supply from long term housing [e.g. apartments with 6+ month leases] to hotels/AirBnB rentals [short term housing], reduces long term housing stock and raises prices for residents.

So if hotels produce the same kind of externalities, why are the regulators only focusing on Airbnb?

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by dragonwriter on Friday October 17, 2014 @08:00PM (#8474071)
> So if hotels produce the same kind of externalities, why are the regulators only focusing on Airbnb?

They aren't. Regulators are focussed on the externalities associated with short-term tenancy operations in general, which is why they have imposed regulations imposing safety and other constraints on such operations to mitigate the externalities, as well as imposing taxes to internalize the unmitigated externalities by shifting the costs on to the operations benefiting from the activity that produces the externalities.

What you perceive as focus on Airbnb is just the general focus on short-term tenancies being made manifest in a particular way because of a high-visibility group of people flaunting the rules that result from the more general focus on short-term tenancies.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by opendais on Friday October 17, 2014 @07:44PM (#8474013)
> If this is true, this problem transcends Airbnb. If the building doesn't comply with those does, it doesn't matter what it is being used for.

Incorrect. Its based on usage. Using it for short term tenancy has different requirements.

You really didn't read the OP so I'm done talking to you.

> So if hotels produce the same kind of externalities, why are the regulators only focusing on Airbnb?

...because AirBNB's hosts are not playing by the rules intend to curb the problem. For instance, zoning? Hotel taxes? Following fire codes for short term tenant buildings? Etc?

Hotel taxes don't just magically disappear when the government gets them. They are used to fund city services. City services everyone who comes to Airbnb uses and isn't paying for. They are also increasing the risk of damage to city and their neighbors property. Zoning controls the size of the short term housing and commercial property stock. Etc.

Do you really not understand what these things are for?

At this point I'm just taking the downvotes because I think the underlying issue here is...people on HN really don't understand that these things were created for very valid reasons. Oh well.

Re:Airbnb in the City – New York State Attorney General's Re... by nostromo on Friday October 17, 2014 @02:22PM (#8472523)
> get Airbnb to share their data with the IRS and problem solved

Airbnb does this already.