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Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by vinceguidry on Friday September 05, 2014 @02:41PM (#8275553)
> I listened to a talk by Amazon's CTO, Werner Vogels, where he was explaining that Amazon's entire strategy is to build an infrastructure for itself, then rent that infrastructure out to its competitors.

This was the game played by John D. Rockefeller. He had so much infrastructure built up by the time they split up Standard Oil, that each new state Standard Oil immediately had everything it needed to keep operations going and the breakup was essentially a bunch of paperwork. As a stockholder in all of the new firms, Rockefeller's net worth tripled, from ~300m to ~900 million.

To make this strategy work, you need mountains of cash. In his salad days, Rockefeller cultivated excellent relationships with bankers, who would stop him on the streets of Cleveland and ask him if he needed money. Eventually he decided to buy up Cleveland's entire refining industry, an event that became known as the Cleveland Massacre.

John offered three choices to rival refiners, cash, Standard Oil stock, or to get crushed. He leveraged his extensive railroad connections and infrastructure to bury competitors, for one thing he owned virtually all the oil tank rail cars, without which you couldn't sell your products because you couldn't move them efficiently.

The right choice was to have taken stock, which would have made you fabulously wealthy. If you were any good at the oil business at all, he would also offer you a job, which again would have eventually made you very very rich. He had an insatiable hunger for quality staff. It was never a good idea to bet against Rockefeller.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by chriskelley on Friday September 05, 2014 @02:50PM (#8275601)
Great write-up, really piqued my interest in Rockefeller. Any good reads you can recommend?
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by vinceguidry on Friday September 05, 2014 @02:51PM (#8275607)
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by WalterBright on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:01PM (#8275662)
I read Titan. Interestingly, it documents how SO's market share was declining steadily throughout the anti-trust trial, and Rockefeller was unable to stop it.

It runs against the conventional story of SO being an inevitable monopoly.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by vinceguidry on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:23PM (#8275790)
Well, at the time, the kerosene market was declining and there was nothing bringing it back. Right after the breakup, Henry Ford finally perfected the automobile, and Standard Oil came right back.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by WalterBright on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:33PM (#8275852)
Market share isn't the same thing as market size. The point being, SO was losing to competitors.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by valarauca1 on Friday September 05, 2014 @04:07PM (#8276002)
Very true. From 1870 to 1890 SO was 90% of the oil market. By 1907 they were 68%.

Their main competition was from Russia oddly enough.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by caycep on Friday September 05, 2014 @08:34PM (#8277004)
Thanks. The Prize by Daniel Yergin isn't bad either.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by saryant on Friday September 05, 2014 @11:38PM (#8277418)
The Prize doesn't get into Rockefeller's business decisions as much as Titan though. If that's what you're after, Titan is a better choice.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:13PM (#8279183)
It is meticulously researched, though, and the bibliography is as good a place as any to look for further reading on Rockefeller.

Above and beyond that, simply as a history of the most important substance in all of human history beyond sheer biological necessities, it's utterly fascinating. It's principally through Yergin's work that I came to pretty much diametrically opposite conclusions of the future of energy from his.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by TrevorJ on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:00PM (#8275652)
The documentary series "The Men Who Built America" is a really well done overview of some of these guys.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by mrottenkolber on Saturday September 06, 2014 @11:40AM (#8278578)
The problem with these american HC documentaries is that they are employ certain stylistic means which make them impossible to watch for me.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:13PM (#8279188)
What stylistic means, if you don't mind my asking?
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by bwaxxlo on Saturday September 06, 2014 @05:30PM (#8279551)
Overtly bias portrayals to an extent that it becomes celebratory in nature. While I can understand the need to do so, it has become so ingrained that it is impossible find any historically objective documentary that allows viewers to understand the mindset of the period.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Saturday September 06, 2014 @08:57PM (#8280012)
Thanks. So, hagiographic? Or just plain biased.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by vinceguidry on Saturday September 06, 2014 @09:37PM (#8280067)
Note that the person who answered your question wasn't the person you asked it of.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Sunday September 07, 2014 @03:31AM (#8280527)
Something that's difficult to tell from HN's default 'threads' view :(

Thanks for the heads-up.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by AtmaScout on Friday September 05, 2014 @04:47PM (#8276199)
I wish this was on Netflix streaming. I find this type of history really appealing.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by wilam on Saturday September 06, 2014 @12:06AM (#8277483)
It's on Amazon Prime;)
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by AtmaScout on Friday September 19, 2014 @08:37AM (#8340179)
Very nice, thanks!
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by samstave on Friday September 05, 2014 @05:41PM (#8276469)
You can also watch "The men who built america"
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by igravious on Friday September 05, 2014 @02:58PM (#8275641)
Blimey. Fascinating. Sounds like a rather frightening and ruthless individual.

Am curious. What would your nominations be for the Rockefeller of the tech (software/hardware) world? Ever thought about that?

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by vinceguidry on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:19PM (#8275771)
Rockefeller was a human hurricane, a truly unique individual. He practically invented the modern corporation. He was also a product of his time. I don't think a comparison to any of today's tech giants could be anything more than laughably superficial.

There are plenty of ruthless people in business even today. But Rockefeller was driven by the belief that cooperation in business, rather than competition, was the way forward for society. The business he built reflected that. Eventually the world learned from his model and now business isn't quite so cutthroat.

But it took Rockefeller to create this new order. Someone so genius at business that there was no stopping him from doing anything he wanted to do. Not even the full might of the federal government could bring him low. Maybe they could have eventually, but the government's position on monopoly softened after it realized what the economies of scale it generated meant for our wartime industrial efficiency. There were other titans in that time period. Rockefeller stands above them all.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by samstave on Friday September 05, 2014 @05:59PM (#8276542)
I would equate only Musk to him with respect to creating lasting change.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by psychometry on Friday September 05, 2014 @08:46PM (#8277024)
What lasting change has Musk effected? The potential is certainly there, but the average person's life isn't much different than it would be had Musk never existed.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by Karellen on Saturday September 06, 2014 @12:09PM (#8278658)
Paypal.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by psychometry on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:47PM (#8279272)
Paypal was certainly an important development, but it's not exactly the Model-T of our time. Someone else would've built and funded a similar solution anyway.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by samstave on Saturday September 06, 2014 @12:32AM (#8277540)
Uh, the private space industry?

Really, you don't see what is happening here?

Who else mounted a private space company able to dock with that of the global governmental effort that is the ISS?

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by Karellen on Saturday September 06, 2014 @12:25PM (#8278699)
SpaceX is conceptually awesome, and it's incredible how far they've come already, and I find myself being unbelievably excited for the future of space travel and exploration whenever they put another Falcon 9 up there. (I'm rubbing my hands in anticipation of tonights/tomorrow morning's AsiaSat launch.)

But. They're not there yet. At the moment, they're currently providing a launch facility that is equivalent to services offered by a number of other vendors, albeit at a slightly lower (currently) price. And the service they're providing really does not directly impact on 99.9% of the lives going on around you.

Yes, their reusable launch system program is way ahead of anything else anyone is doing, but it's still experimental, and isn't yet providing benefits to even their direct customers, let alone anyone else.

Musk hasn't made lasting change yet with SpaceX. I really, really hope he does. Becoming a multiplanetry species would be the biggest thing for Humanity since, well, fire, standing upright, or speech, and Musk seems to be the person best placed to make that happen in the next 20-40-odd years.

But he's not done it yet.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by psychometry on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:47PM (#8279269)
Did you read my comment? The average person can't take advantage of anything offered by the private space industry.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by cwp on Saturday September 06, 2014 @05:16PM (#8279516)
The average person doesn't make use of communication satellites? Ok, maybe not directly, but without them you wouldn't be able to live sports on TV.

http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/07/14/falcon-9-launches-orbc...

http://www.spacex.com/news/2014/08/06/spacex-launches-asiasa...

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by psychometry on Saturday September 06, 2014 @10:11PM (#8280120)
Elon Musk did not invent communication satellites. In fact, he wasn't even born yet when they were invented.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by cwp on Sunday September 07, 2014 @02:22PM (#8281933)
So? Rockefeller didn't invent the internal combustion engine either.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by jpatel3 on Saturday September 06, 2014 @08:10PM (#8279937)
Its too early to judge, I think the with the Tesla its really deep connection how the average persons life will change in near future and greater good of the future generation.

http://www.teslamotors.com/de_AT/blog/promise-electric-vehic...

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by awa on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:14PM (#8279195)
Bill Gates with Microsoft.

At its peak Windows was running on 90% of computers and the biggest rival Apple (Steve Jobs) was taking money from Microsoft (Bill G) to survive.

Bill was able to leverage almost all other software companies to create software for Windows to create a lock in fro the customers.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by philwelch on Sunday September 07, 2014 @02:26AM (#8280469)
Microsoft's $150MM investment in Apple wasn't necessary for Apple to survive. The commitment it signaled (plus the promise to keep making Office for Mac) might have been, but the money wasn't.

> The day before the announcement Apple had a market cap of $2.46 billion,[58] and had ended its previous quarter with quarterly revenues of US$1.7 billion and cash reserves of US$1.2 billion,[59] making the US$150 million amount of the investment largely symbolic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Apple_Inc.#1996:_Ret...

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by scholia on Saturday September 06, 2014 @06:22PM (#8279689)
Windows is still running on more than 90% of the world's PCs. It provided an openly-licensed standard that enabled hundreds of thousands of companies to enter the hardware and software business -- and some of them became rich. It also delivered huge benefits to the companies that freely adopted Windows to benefit from the massive ecosystem it produced.

It's hard to see how many people suffered who didn't fail thanks mainly to their own mistakes. I'd put DR, IBM (Lotus), Novell and Netscape in that group.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by gadders on Saturday September 06, 2014 @08:12AM (#8278141)
To be clear, though, I believe he was ruthless in business, as, say, Michael Jordan or Floyd Mayweather is ruthless in sports.

AFAIK he wasn't off kicking puppies and punching beggars in his spare time. You can be a ruthless businessman and perfectly good human being.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by philwelch on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:06PM (#8275700)
In the 1990's, undoubtedly Gates.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by smacktoward on Friday September 05, 2014 @03:54PM (#8275947)
Yeah, that was my thought too.

> John offered three choices to rival refiners, cash, Standard Oil stock, or to get crushed

... is also a pretty good description of how Microsoft approached anyone they considered competition in the '80s and '90s: you either licensed your software to them ("cash"), sold your company to them ("stock"), or got destroyed by them.

Gates' charitable efforts have earned him a warmer and fuzzier reputation these days (another parallel to Rockefeller?), but back then he was an absolute barracuda.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by tlb on Friday September 05, 2014 @07:17PM (#8276805)
It's worth reading Ron Chernow's biography of the Rockefellers.

Rockefeller had a strong Christian Soldier belief system, in which he was righteous and most other oilmen were sinners. (The 19th century oil business attracted a lot of hard-drinking, gambling, womanizing types.) He did good works with his money, while many of his competitors would have spent it on vice. Therefore, he was furthering God's plan for the righteous to inherit the earth by beating them in business.

It's a worldview difficult for moderns to relate to, but I think it was authentic for him.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by philwelch on Saturday September 06, 2014 @04:51AM (#8277870)
> The right choice was to have taken stock, which would have made you fabulously wealthy. If you were any good at the oil business at all, he would also offer you a job, which again would have eventually made you very very rich. He had an insatiable hunger for quality staff. It was never a good idea to bet against Rockefeller.

That was eerily reminiscent for me, too.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by veb on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:24PM (#8276625)
Hmm, does his charitable efforts these days make up for the pain and suffering he caused back when he was a barracuda? (nice term, btw).

I like to say yes. I think. I mean, he may have destroyed hundreds of people's livelihoods/jobs/companies, but his efforts these days are literally saving peoples lives.

Does anyone have an opinion on this? I'm a firm believer people can change and while this might not be Bill Gates changing, it might simply be him "atoning for his sins" so to speak, not that I'm religious, nor that he is either I think.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by jholman on Saturday September 06, 2014 @08:24AM (#8278167)
I assume from "these days" that you mean Gates, not Rockefeller.

Microsoft wrote some software that was, I would argue, overall an improvement on the software against which it competed. So Microsoft did some good. However, in the process of extracting value, they actively - and, in my opinion, often unethically - suppressed the efforts of those with whom they competed. I don't pretend to be very knowledgeable on the exact value of these positive and negative effects, but I think it's pretty clear that all of the above effects more or less amounted making a bunch of computer nerds like us a little richer, or a little poorer. Not necessarily in money, but in power... like the power to track business expenses cheaply (which Microsoft enhanced, with Excel), or the power to collaborate on making productive software for ourselves and share it freely with the world (which Microsoft harmed, see the Halloween Documents, or other conspiracy evidence of your choice).

For the most part, this only affects a few dozen million humans, and even interpreted broadly it affects perhaps 10% of humanity. And the effects are small; for almost all of the affected, life gets less than 1% better or 1% worse, due to Microsoft existing. I mean, that's bigger than most companies, but.

I'm less able to give clear magnitudes of the impact of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. My understanding, though, is that they're playing a significant role in the attempts to eradicate polio. Frankly, you can inflict Windows95 on me for the next 50 years, if that's what it takes to save one person from polio. Suppose that it turns out that polio is eradicated, and the B&MGF is due 1% of the credit for that; wouldn't this be more valuable than all the harm ever done by MS, past and future? And then there's their malaria-eradication efforts, their money spent on education, their money spent on sanitation, etc etc.

Bill Gates seems to have stolen a very manageable amount of our first-world wealth, burned a good fraction of in an engine of inefficiency (for example, Ballmer got some money too), and given most of the rest of it where it could do the most good (modulo a small fraction kept for himself, to indulge in fabulous luxury). As far as I can tell, although it astounds and confounds me, Bill Gates is Robin Hood. wtf.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by philwelch on Saturday September 06, 2014 @11:17AM (#8278525)
I really like this theory. I guess it turns out that once you put into perspective what part of the world Microsoft affected, it really is fundamentally outweighed by the good the Gates Foundation is doing.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by gnaritas on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:39PM (#8276685)
> Hmm, does his charitable efforts these days make up for the pain and suffering he caused back when he was a barracuda?

No. Changing doesn't remove your past sins and helping one person doesn't balance your hurting another. To believe so would mean saving a life makes up for taking another life, obviously it doesn't.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by derekp7 on Friday September 05, 2014 @09:40PM (#8277140)
Reminds me of a parable in I think an old Hardy Boys book. First, pound a bunch of nails in a board. Now remove the nails. Now remove the holes.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dusklight on Saturday September 06, 2014 @04:25PM (#8279363)
Does that mean he should stop and go back to being a barracuda?

It's certainly not fair to make the comparison of saving one life in exchange for taking another. A better comparison would be saving many (millions?) of poor, non-white lives in exchange for stealing money from privileged white men (majority of people in the software industry during his era).

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by scholia on Saturday September 06, 2014 @06:33PM (#8279712)
Gates helped make a lot of your "privileged white men" rich by providing a market for compatible software and hardware. He also helped a lot of Asians become rich as well.

In the 1980s, Apple went round Hong Kong, Taiwan and China suing companies for making knockoffs of the Apple II (ie better, faster, more reliable and much cheaper versions of the Apple II). Then along came the PC industry, which welcomed them -- and their innovations -- with open arms.

How do you balance a handful of self-righteous American programmers against the wealth and the millions of jobs generated by Acer, Asus, MSI, Hon Hai, Wistron, Pegatron, Quanta, Compal, Inventec, etc?

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by gnaritas on Wednesday September 10, 2014 @02:50PM (#8298286)
> Does that mean he should stop and go back to being a barracuda?

Of course not.

> It's certainly not fair to make the comparison of saving one life in exchange for taking another.

It's exactly the right example because it makes the moral choice clear and that same choice applies to the lesser scenario.

> A better comparison would be

We don't need a better comparison, it's already been made clear that you can't make up for sins against one by helping another.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by veb on Friday September 05, 2014 @06:54PM (#8276732)
Great point, didn't think of it like that.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by xorcist on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:32PM (#8279240)
That's absolutely impossible to measure. What parts of Microsofts business can be accurately ascribed to him? What patent trolls are completely Microsoft-owned? What damage do they do?

They did an absolutely unprecedented assault on the Internet on the developer, policy, and user front when they found out they could not compete there, until they turned that policy around. We only see vague results of this today, on that all development of the web itself was put on an 8 year hiatus, and in some of the crazy proprietary formats that still plague us.

But how do you put it in economic terms? How much is the break-ins at RSA, Cisco Google, Valve, and inbetweens unknown worth to the global economy, because bad business practice forced peoples email clients to have the ability to run code?

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by graycat on Saturday September 06, 2014 @09:17AM (#8278277)
> Does anyone have an opinion on this? I'm a firm believer people can change and while this might not be Bill Gates changing, it might simply be him "atoning for his sins" so to speak, not that I'm religious, nor that he is either I think.

My candidate explanation, Melinda.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by baddox on Friday September 05, 2014 @11:49PM (#8277441)
What pain and suffering did he cause, other than running his business better and offering a better product to customers than his competitors? He cut the price of kerosene by 90%, which must have vastly improved the quality of life for a lot of people.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:17PM (#8279201)
Blowing up competitors comes to mind.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by baddox on Saturday September 06, 2014 @06:11PM (#8279651)
I can find one reference to a claim from a Vacuum Oil Company mechanic that he was bribed to sabotage a still which caused a sabotage a still. The website appears to be an online edition of a book, and it looks less than reputable. Is this what you're referring to?

http://www.micheloud.com/FXM/so/consolid.htm

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by dredmorbius on Monday September 08, 2014 @05:50AM (#8284013)
There are references in Daniel Yergin's _The Prize_ IIRC, and the anecdotal references to "Wreckafeller". I'd have to dig for specifics.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by teddyh on Saturday September 06, 2014 @10:54PM (#8280201)
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by baddox on Friday September 05, 2014 @11:47PM (#8277437)
Perhaps less frightening when you consider that he manage to cut the end-user price of kerosene by 90%.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by bowlofpetunias on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:46AM (#8277798)
Cut prices on a finite and polluting resource. No, not really less frighting.

Also a reminder that the term "visionary" is very relative to your horizon.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by saryant on Saturday September 06, 2014 @03:49PM (#8279274)
Rockefeller built an enterprise that continues on to this day. An empire that has seen nineteen American presidents come and go, watched superpowers rise and fall and is (IMO) the most important company in history.

Exxon still breathes Rockefeller, his imprint can be seen all over that company. To call him a visionary is absolutely appropriate.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by baddox on Saturday September 06, 2014 @06:05PM (#8279638)
I don't oppose all improvements in human quality of life that have a potential negative environmental impact.
Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by theodoree on Friday September 05, 2014 @04:11PM (#8276024)
>Fascinating.

If you have low self-esteem maybe. Rockefeller was a piece of shit.

Re:Why Amazon Has No Profits and Why It Works by coliveira on Saturday September 06, 2014 @05:45PM (#8279583)
Rockefeller was able to do this at a time when building a monopoly was just OK. That is not the case anymore, and anytime Amazon is accused to do something similar they will be destroyed by the government.