News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Debunking Princeton by hooande on Thursday January 23, 2014 @05:39PM (#7111896)
I hope this becomes a bigger story than the original. I can't tell you how many times someone has thrown a junk science article in my face, thinking that the issue in question was now settled. A survey with a small sample size, outsized extrapolations and numbers that don't match the accompanying conjecture.

There should be consequences for the people who publish these things. People have a tendency to believe anything that someone in a lab coat says, especially if it supports their point of view or anecdotal experience. In many cases the people who do the research present it with few qualifications while not standing behind assumed implications. If someone publishes sensational and link baity findings they should say, unequivocally, "I'm willing to stake my reputation on the idea this trend is real and will continue" or "These are just data and I'm not willing to say that they have any bearing on reality".

Facebook may not have been right to dignify the initial post with a response, but I hope it works for the best. They say that some attention is better than no attention at all. It's important that this applies to self promotion and persona creation and not science. If somebody has something crazy to say, they should start a personal blog. Those who want to intentionally attract media attention should present themselves as such, instead of pretending to be doing any kind of meaningful experiment and hypothesis testing.

Re:Debunking Princeton by throwaway_yy2Di on Thursday January 23, 2014 @05:59PM (#7112044)
"There should be consequences for the people who publish these things."

Many who are published deserve obscurity. And some who have obscurity deserve more funding. Can you give it to them?

Do not be so eager to deal out censorship; for even institutional review boards cannot see all ends.

Re:Debunking Princeton by OnyeaboAduba on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:35PM (#7112270)
That was an impressive use of the Lord of the Rings lines in your comment I must say
Re:Debunking Princeton by deevus on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:36PM (#7112282)
Yes, Professor Gandalf.
Re:Debunking Princeton by ogreyonder on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:05PM (#7112728)
For a throwaway, you are remarkable.
Re:Debunking Princeton by saraid216 on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:04AM (#7113424)
FYI, half the people with the name "throwaway" aren't throwaways. :P
Re:Debunking Princeton by eternalban on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:05AM (#7115167)
So we have a culture of social insecurity at HN. #masks
Re:Debunking Princeton by saraid216 on Saturday January 25, 2014 @12:50AM (#7120005)
Nostalgia for anonymity. And also, sometimes you make a throwaway and then need to respond to a response and then you respond to something else while logged in and then you have 50 karma points and well, why not?
Re:Debunking Princeton by ecuzzillo on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:54PM (#7112915)
s/censorship/censure/
Re:Debunking Princeton by wsxcde on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:15AM (#7113449)
> There should be consequences for the people who publish these things.

Should there be consequences for people who publish buggy code on github? Because that situation is completely equivalent to what these phd students did. ArXiv isn't a repository of peer-reviewed accepted papers, it's just a repository of papers, just like how github is repository of code.

The people to blame here aren't the students themselves. They just wrote up a mildly interesting observation and put it up on a repository. The people to blame are journalists and internet dumbasses who used this paper to serve their own selfish ends.

> I can't tell you how many times someone has thrown a junk science article in my face, thinking that the issue in question was now settled.

There's no denying the existence of a lot of peer-reviewed junk science but sometimes there are perfectly good reasons why papers with faulty conclusions are accepted. The question addressed by the paper might be interesting, the experimental methodology might be interesting, the data sources used in the research might be interesting, or the editors/program committee might just want to highlight the lack of progress in an area that deserves more attention.

Publishing something that is completely fault-free isn't a desirable or even an achievable goal. This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of scientific publishing. The goal of scientific publication is to advance the field by stimulating discussion at the boundaries of human knowledge. This can often be done even with "buggy" results. Think of it as the scientific equivalent of fail often, fail early and fail fast mantra that drives many startups.

I'm not dismissing your frustration though because the problem you've described is a real one. We aren't very good at communicating scientific results to laypersons. But unlike you, I don't have a glib solution to a problem I don't fully understand. Magazines like the communications of the ACM with accessible, professionally-edited articles written by experts in the field are probably one step in the right direction, but there is a lot more that needs to be done here.

Re:Debunking Princeton by hrjet on Friday January 24, 2014 @12:46AM (#7113535)
What matters is the effect. If someone puts up code on GitHub which purports to compute the Fibonacci series, but mistakenly does a `rm -r ~/*` then surely there should be a way to flag that code or author ("consequences").
Re:Debunking Princeton by wsxcde on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:41AM (#7113672)
If you find a flaw in a published paper, the normal course of action is to e-mail the authors letting them know what you think is wrong. If authors think this is a devastating flaw, they will retract their paper. Even if they don't, you can still publish a note yourself explaining why these results are flawed. This happens all the time and the 'consequences' you desire are already built into the system. Flawed papers don't do very well on citation or influence metrics.

But much more importantly, the flaw in your mental model is thinking that claims in published papers are expected to be correct. They aren't. The goal of a paper is to advance the field by stimulating discussion and new research. The unfortunate consequence of this is that laypersons can't directly use research papers as an authoritative source describing our current understanding of a subject.

The github analogy still holds up. Non-programmers shouldn't be downloading code off github, compiling and running it because they have no way of evaluating whether the code really does what it claims to do. They're probably better off getting applications from curated app stores. Accessible scientific publications written by recognized experts in the field are the equivalent of curated app stores. That is where laypersons should be looking to understand the state of the art in scientific knowledge.

Re:Debunking Princeton by dllthomas on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:46AM (#7115816)
What matters is the effect, but the person responsible for the effect should be the person deploying the code. Not all code on github is close to "done". If you take my alpha Fibonacci-sequence code and choose to run it on your nuclear power plant, I'm responsible for the mess - you are.
Re:Debunking Princeton by dllthomas on Saturday January 25, 2014 @11:29AM (#7121182)
Looks like I forgot a "not"... I'm not responsible for the mess.
Re:Debunking Princeton by OverlordXenu on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:25AM (#7114398)
This is just kind of ridiculously fallacious. Surely a slightly inaccurate paper is not comparable to malicious code. That's not a fair comparison to make.
Re:Debunking Princeton by hrjet on Friday January 24, 2014 @07:34AM (#7114595)
I wasn't comparing that particular paper with malicious code. Inaccurate papers in other fields (like biology) might have a more significant impact.

If we were to continue the GitHub analogy, it would be great if ArXiv had a public "issue" list.

Re:Debunking Princeton by ameister14 on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:06AM (#7113583)
I think that's a pretty postmodern way of looking at things. Intent definitely matters to me.
Re:Debunking Princeton by judk on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:17PM (#7119689)
Arxiv is an invitation-only preprint-server. Authors who post junk are abusing their invitation and hurting the reputation of all Arxiv contributors.

In HN-speak, Arxiv is like a Svtle blog.

Re:Debunking Princeton by _delirium on Sunday January 26, 2014 @06:05AM (#7124741)
The arXiv is not invitation-only. Anyone can sign up for an account: https://arxiv.org/edit-user/?tapir_dest=https%3A%2F%2Farxiv....
Re:Debunking Princeton by walrus on Sunday January 26, 2014 @07:59PM (#7128011)
You need to be endorsed by an active user in order to submit papers: https://arxiv.org/help/endorsement
Re:Debunking Princeton by hkmurakami on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:53PM (#7112373)
The worst part for me is that the two authors are Ph.D. candidates in MAE (Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering) [1]. They aren't even tenure track faculty at the school and aren't really in a position to carry the name of the school on their shoulders. Yet from what it seems, it will be the school itself that will be hit with most of the public shaming burden (ex: the FB post's headline).

As a Princeton alum, I'm a bit saddened at the course of events :(

[1] http://www.princeton.edu/~spikelab/people.html

Re:Debunking Princeton by codersarepeople on Thursday January 23, 2014 @09:44PM (#7113074)
I am a current Princeton Ph.D. student in CS. Let me say that if one sees an article saying "Princeton study finds..." they are more likely to pay attention to it. Thus, unfortunately, we must also bare the brunt of bad press like this.

On the OTHER hand, this was a non-peer reviewed thought experiment by some MAE students outside their area. It would be akin to me turning in an assignment for a class and the media ran with it saying "Princeton study..."

Unfortunately, readers are going to read this rebuttal as an attack on Princeton, which it really isn't; if anything it's only funny because of how strong Princeton really is.

Re:Debunking Princeton by STRiDEX on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:08PM (#7112465)
The action of the two PH.D. candidates. The action of few employees. Yet they both represent the group to which they belong.
Re:Debunking Princeton by sabbatic13 on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:47PM (#7112646)
Bullshit.

4500 undergrads, 1500 graduate students, and hundreds of faculty, and you think that every little paper they give or study they conduct is a product of the whole in a meaningful sense?

The study was practically just a thought experiment by two grad students looking at something outside of their expertise. It _only_ got any attention, because it was about Facebook, and so the media saw a chance to sell more ads. For the same reason, they used the metaphor of pars pro toto as a rhetorical ploy, because Princeton vs. Facebook sells more ads. Like many among the unthinking masses, you got punked by it.

Re:Debunking Princeton by CGamesPlay on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:46PM (#7112887)
The students also published it online before it was peer-reviewed. I think the grandparent is more referring to the typical corporate cop-out of "the actions of a few employees", even though the damage is done regardless of who did it--and the employees (or students) did it under the name of the organization.
Re:Debunking Princeton by Fomite on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:45PM (#7113236)
These students did absolutely nothing wrong.

They submitted their paper to a well known, well regarded preprint service (arXiv), which is pretty normal for a number of fields.

Then, presumably, the paper would go to peer review. Where one would hope the reviewers would point out a few glaring flaws (like that an SIR model without either the creation of new susceptibles or waning immunity must go to 0 and they are 'dooming themselves to success').

The paper would get rejected, or heavily revised, and the world would keep spinning.

They didn't actually do anything wrong. If you want to blame someone, blame an overexcited media that grabbed something off a preprint server and ran with it, knowing full well arXiv has no 'Is this right' quality checks, and isn't peer reviewed.

Re:Debunking Princeton by tripzilch on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:45AM (#7114270)
> These students did absolutely nothing wrong.

> The paper would get rejected, or heavily revised, and the world would keep spinning.

Which means they did something wrong. Sure it might have been just a mistake, not quite the cardinal sin the GP makes it out to be, but you don't have to publish papers with flawed arguments on ArXiv.

It's one thing to write up a silly LaTeX PDF with wild speculations, put it on your webpage, but you don't need to submit every brainfart to ArXiv either, or do you?

Re:Debunking Princeton by Fomite on Friday January 24, 2014 @10:45AM (#7115412)
Not being correct is not a sin.

Beyond that, the paper isn't pants-on-head crazy. The objections most people have to it can be solved by adding a single term to one of the equations, and some very straightforward sensitivity analysis.

Which is, you know, exactly the kind of thing pointed out in peer review.

Re:Debunking Princeton by OverlordXenu on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:47AM (#7114461)
Scientific papers are rarely perfect. Papers are often sent back for revision.
Re:Debunking Princeton by bhouston on Thursday January 23, 2014 @09:37PM (#7113052)
arXiv papers are pre-peer reviewed (preprint), that is its purpose. There are 500,000 papers on that site or more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArXiv

And it is standard for authors to list their university affiliations on papers whatever the quality of the paper regardless of whether it is a pre-print or not. Look at every other paper on arXiv, they all have affiliations, and there is a ton of crap on arXiv that will never pass pre-review.

These students didn't do anything wrong in putting the paper online here. Now if they did a PR to the media to promote their work and mis-portrayed it as peer reviewed or authoritative, that is a different matter. But putting a pre-print on arVix with proper affiliations is just standard procedure these days.

Re:Debunking Princeton by ballard on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:20AM (#7113886)
The bottom line is any paper made public will be examined and possibly turned into a story, so evidence and conclusions better be up to snuff or risk damaging one's and the institution's reputations.
Re:Debunking Princeton by amirmc on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:31AM (#7114086)
The problem is with the media and the way things were spun. Correcting that should not involve stifling the workflows scientists use. The GitHub analogy is a good one as what you're suggesting is the equivalent of only pushing perfect code.
Re:Debunking Princeton by megablast on Thursday January 23, 2014 @07:49PM (#7112653)
We should be blaming the human race then! Shame on us.
Re:Debunking Princeton by calroc on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:30PM (#7112817)
Heck yeah blame the human race! If it wasn't for humans none of this would be happening! (heh.)
Re:Debunking Princeton by argumentum on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:05PM (#7113131)
> There should be consequences for the people who publish these things.

The question you pose here isn't whether or not something is "good science", it's about who gets to decide what constitutes "good science" and "bad science".

Science has been able to handle itself quite well over the centuries since it has come into existence. Publishing something, in your name, as these authors have done, is an implicit declaration of what you phrased as "I'm willing to stake my reputation on the idea this trend is real and will continue".

The spirit of free inquiry, on which science is based, demands that we hold nothing sacred and immune from questions. Good science, almost by definition, requires "bad science".

Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.

Re:Debunking Princeton by Fomite on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:42PM (#7113227)
Technically, this isn't even published, it's a preprint service, and it's hardly the worst thing I've ever seen come out of arXiv.

If you want to blame someone, blame an uncritical media.

Re:Debunking Princeton by dsugarman on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:27PM (#7112218)
while I think the original wasn't close to real science, don't be surprised if they are somewhat right
Re:Debunking Princeton by tomasien on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:29PM (#7112227)
You're probably basing your opinion that FB may die by 2018 on better insights than they were basing the study on honestly.
Re:Debunking Princeton by dsugarman on Thursday January 23, 2014 @06:55PM (#7112389)
well not necessarily die by 2018, just the fact that social media is mostly moving fads. everyone wants to be the social network that high school and college girls post their vacation photos to, if you are that then you will likely be somewhat relevant for the lifetime of these girls.
Re:Debunking Princeton by coliveira on Thursday January 23, 2014 @10:23PM (#7113186)
Or maybe it's the opposite: if a teenager has an account with lots of pictures, he/she will probably want to kill that account as soon as they get to adult life to avoid awkward moments. I think this explains why many young kids are leaving FB.
Re:Debunking Princeton by ballard on Friday January 24, 2014 @03:23AM (#7113892)
The bigger issue is kids don't want to use the uncool social networks their parents use. Secondarily, that might come into play later as an afterthought.
Re:Debunking Princeton by jrs99 on Thursday January 23, 2014 @08:46PM (#7112883)
what the heck is "real" science? A lot of the greatest science started the same exact way. Making connections that nobody else could see. Finding purposefully playful, surprising analogies. Doing things so ludicrous that everyone said would not work. Exploring ideas and sharing them.
Re:Debunking Princeton by dsugarman on Thursday January 23, 2014 @11:59PM (#7113409)
Real science is something you prove
Re:Debunking Princeton by dllthomas on Friday January 24, 2014 @11:50AM (#7115859)
That sounds more like mathematics.
Re:Debunking Princeton by TeMPOraL on Friday January 24, 2014 @01:09AM (#7113588)
> There should be consequences for the people who publish these things.

Lab coats are there to bounde ideas off each other and sometimes write stupid things that will get corrected by other lab coats.

Consequences should be there for the people who find such articles and take them for a media spin. It's not the paper that is doing the damage, it's the news articles, like the Guardian story. It is the responsibility of a journalist to make sure they're not posting utter bullcrap to millions, and when they fail to do that, there, here should come consequences.

Re:Debunking Princeton by emiliobumachar on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:00AM (#7113993)
That would be even more dangerous. The power to impose consequences on irresponsible journalists gets abused every time.
Re:Debunking Princeton by TeMPOraL on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:21AM (#7114205)
Could you provide an example? I haven't seen a single case of the thing I was meaning by my comment, so either we misunderstood each other, or I haven't checked hard enough.
Re:Debunking Princeton by XorNot on Friday January 24, 2014 @04:25AM (#7114068)
Science article?

So what's been thrown in your face, the published paper or the out-of-breath news article with the click-bait headline?

Re:Debunking Princeton by OverlordXenu on Friday January 24, 2014 @06:23AM (#7114390)
Was the science that terrible? Or rather, was the methodology so terrible or was it the data, or was it truly both?

Studies are only ever useful in aggregate, anyway. It's about metaanalysis, not just what any singular study says.

Re:Debunking Princeton by tripzilch on Friday January 24, 2014 @05:27AM (#7114219)
I don't really see the problem, according to TFA, Princeton is going to disappear anyway. The problem solves itself.