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Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by morsch on Monday December 23, 2013 @04:51PM (#6956727)
Not sure if this tidbit made Hacker News -- the OpenSSL project added Dual_EC_DRBG support at the request of a paying customer: http://openssl.6102.n7.nabble.com/Consequences-to-draw-from-...

They're under NDA and cannot reveal the customer's name. The thread doesn't say how much the customer paid, does anybody know? A friend told me 600k USD last night, but I cannot find any sources that back this up.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by amatix on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:29PM (#6956971)
Some important context from the OpenSSL list last week (http://marc.info/?l=openssl-announce&m=138747119822324&w=2 ):

  Why did we implement Dual EC DRBG in the first place?
  - ----------------------------------------------------
  
  It was requested by a sponsor as one of several deliverables. The
  reasoning at the time (my reasoning and call as the project manager)
  was that we would implement any algorithm based on official published
  standards. SP800-90A is a more or less mandatory part of FIPS 140-2,
  for any module of non-trivial complexity. FIPS 140-2 validations are
  expensive and difficult, taking on average a year to complete and we
  have to wait years between validations. So, there is an incentive to
  pack as much as possible into each validation and our sponsors (dozens
  of them) had a long list of requirements they were willing to fund.
  
  We knew at the time (this was the pre-Snowden era) that Dual EC DRBG
  had a dubious reputation, but it was part of an official standard (one
  of the four DRBGs in SP800-90A) and OpenSSL is after all a comprehensive
  cryptographic library and toolkit. As such it implements many algorithms
  of varying strength and utility, from worthless to robust. We of course
  did not enable Dual EC DRBG by default, and the discovery of this bug
  demonstrates that no one has even attempted to use it.
  
  Where did our implementation come from?
  - --------------------------------------
  
  The client requirement was simply "Implement all of SP800-90A". Our code
  was implemented solely from that standard.
Seems fair enough if a client says "implement all the standard" that they implemented it... it's a bit different than "just add this one algorithm"
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by alttab on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:55PM (#6957135)
This "explanation" is misdirection. The accusation was never that the NSA wanted to add just this one bust algorithm. The NSA, acting as a client protected by privacy, could have easily invested time and money to be a significant contributor, with a small, hidden, 1 time payload.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by mst on Monday December 23, 2013 @07:39PM (#6957568)
I fail to see how it's misdirection. OpenSSL have explained, clearly, what they were paid for - and it seems entirely reasonable to implement everything, especially given - as that post shows - that the duff algorithm was really quite hard to use unless you really tried.

Additionally, given the trouble Theo's got into on a number of occasions for criticisng bits of the government, it seems fairly unlikely that he would've been comfortable with the project taking NSA money.

Most plausible situation: Corporation said "here's money, implement ALL the things", OpenSSL figured it was a good way to get the useful things paid for plus some stuff that potential future sponsors might find useful in marketing material.

As for whether said Corporation had additional, non-obvious motives, I make no guess either way.

But misdirection does not, frankly, seem appropriate to describe the explanation given, and your scare quotes suggest you're appealing to emotion rather than presenting an actual argument. Do feel free to present one if you have one, though, it's entirely possible I misunderstood.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by Tyrannosaurs on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @07:57AM (#6959213)
Are there not two questions:

1) Were flaws introduced into the technology which potentially reduce the strength of the encryption?

2) Did OpenSSL know about it?

It seems the answers can be yes and no without any real stretch.

If you are, say, the NSA, asking / paying for a whole standard to be implemented (a) gets the bit you want implemented and (b) hides what you're really interested in from anyone wondering and looks less suspicious. Once it's in they could either start pushing for it to become a default, push for people to voluntarily choose it (get people speaking at conferences to recommend it or whatever), or just leave it knowing that a few people would use it and that works for them too.

But the fact that OpenSSL probably weren't complicit doesn't change the fact that elements of the product need to be considered potentially flawed.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by edraferi on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:54AM (#6959798)
I'd reverse those answers, actually.

1) the mailing list post states that OpenSSL wants to be comprehensive, even when that means providing implementations of algorithms that you probably shouldn't use. The inclusion of weak, or even broken, algorithms does not undermine the product as a whole given this mission. It has no impact on the effectiveness of other, stronger algorithms in OpenSSL.

2) OpenSSL knew that one of the algorithms in the standard was weak, but thought it was still valuable to implement the standard. again, the comprehensiveness goal means it's up to the end users to utilize OpenSSL in a manner consistent with their use case.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by Spooky23 on Wednesday December 25, 2013 @01:58PM (#6963842)
You're reading too much into this. FIPS-140 validation is required for many applications in areas like healthcare and banking. FIPS compliance is also required for most state/local government applications as well.

I believe you need to be compliant with everything in the spec to be validated.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by throwaway2048 on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @11:21PM (#6962156)
theo and OpenBSD have nothing to do with OpenSSL
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by letstryagain on Monday December 23, 2013 @08:37PM (#6957757)
It's pretty obvious that the 'client' was indeed the NSA. They say they can't reveal who the client is because of the NDA. If the client was NOT the NSA they could simply say so. But they didn't...
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by crag on Monday December 23, 2013 @11:50PM (#6958276)
Ahhh no. Your making assumptions. It's not obvious that the client was the NSA. Why not the DOD, or CIA, or hell even SSA?

Not that it matters much anyway. The result is the same.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by grmarcil on Monday December 23, 2013 @09:37PM (#6957939)
That's not how NDAs work... usually would be a prohibition of both confirming AND/or denying anything related to the information behind the NDA.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by maxerickson on Monday December 23, 2013 @09:13PM (#6957862)
I don't think you can play 20 questions and also say that you are respecting the NDA.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by TheCondor on Monday December 23, 2013 @09:15PM (#6957868)
Fips certifications cost some money and openssl relies upon sponsors to do that. As I understood their explanation it was one of the fips sponsors.

It had a bug anyways, nobody ever used dual ec with openssl.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by blazespin on Monday December 23, 2013 @11:07PM (#6958160)
Steve Marquess, the originator of that post on nabble, is the main point of contact for OpenSSL commercial contracting. It's interesting that he used that phrasing.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by ajross on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:35PM (#6957011)
It's worth pointing out that at the scale mentioned, there's no reason that the "paying customer" had to be The United States National Security Agency. It was a published algorithm, and OpenSSL is used in countless commercial projects. It would have been entirely reasonable for one of these to have come to OpenSSL requesting implementation (albeit as part of a NSA-funded internal project with a 400% markup), and the request would have seemed entirely reasonable.

I don't think you can tar the OpenSSL folks with this without much better evidence.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by gojomo on Monday December 23, 2013 @07:02PM (#6957411)
OTOH, the fact that the delivered code had a bug rendering it unusable suggests whoever requested it didn't really need to use it – or they'd have discovered the bug earlier. That's vaguely suggestive the client may have paid for its inclusion for mere show, or as a favor for another entity.

I wonder: is the client which paid for the non-functional implementation, which if I understand correctly is now scheduled for deletion rather than fix, entitled to a refund?

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by mst on Monday December 23, 2013 @07:31PM (#6957535)
"Implement ALL the algoirthms" sounds like a requirement drafted by somebody enamoured of the standard rather than by somebody looking at what they were actually going to use.

"Our product is compatible with all of <impressive sounding standard>" may, indeed, have been worth the money to the customer even if the value was marketing rather than technoloogy

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by morsch on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:38PM (#6957026)
I agree. It's still notable, though.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by a3vioces on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:06PM (#6956814)
Yes, it was 600k.
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by jwcrux on Monday December 23, 2013 @05:13PM (#6956866)
Do you by chance know the source?
Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by dotBen on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @08:22AM (#6959272)
And where exactly did the money go?

$600k is a lot of money to implement an existing standard. That's 4-5 annual engineer salaries. I'm wondering exactly how much work was actually undertook for $600k and whether those doing it (/charging for it/taking the money) felt it was unusual size remuneration.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by DannyBee on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @09:48AM (#6959522)
"$600k is a lot of money to implement an existing standard."

Not if such a requirement includes things like FIPS validation, which is entirely possible in this case.

Plus, in some cases, these things are done in liu of donations, etc.

I can think of plenty of cases where well known contractors on open source projects have been paid very well simply as a way of showing support for that project.

Re:Sorry, RSA, I'm just not buying it by andrewcooke on Tuesday December 24, 2013 @10:14AM (#6959636)
the only other comment by this acct was a weird attempt to impersonate someone else. it seems more like a troll than an anon informer.