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Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by japhyr on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:14PM (#6690620)
If you are discussing this topic, you might consider referring to the legislation as the "Affordable Health Care Act", which I believe is the title on the actual legislation. Calling it "Obamacare" triggers an overly emotional response from people on both side of this issue.

Ask people if they want universal affordable health care, and most people will discuss the issue. Ask people if they want Obamacare, and you instantly raise all sorts of issues that have nothing to do with health care.

Edit:

I agree with many of the responses here as well. The actual name, which I believe has ten titled parts [0], is a bit of marketing copy as well. But at least it's marketing copy that relates to the substance of the act.

Calling it Obamacare makes it personal, and this is about much more than Obama taking care of all of us.

I'd love to see a neutral name for the legislation itself. I am starting to call it "the current health care legislation".

[0] - http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/rights/law/

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by ctdonath on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:24PM (#6690718)
I can't refer to the legislation by its name because I consider its name disingenuous. A rose by any other name may smell as sweet, but calling dung a rose doesn't make it smell any better. Words mean things; "affordable" the act isn't. The legislation itself raises all sorts of issues that have nothing to do with health care.

ETA: "Obamacare" is used because it's a catchy name which is both quite descriptive (Obama pushed this healthcare law thru, so he owns it) and is not inherently insulting (like "Bushoppression" or "Obamasux" mentioned elsewhere in this thread). Use of this popular nickname causes a frenzy because of its subject, not its inherent phrasing - it is not an ad-hominem attack.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mkramlich on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:01PM (#6691044)
> (Obama pushed this healthcare law thru, so he owns it)

Facts:

Congressional majority voted in favor of it, then Obama signed it, turning it into the law of the land. All those individuals were voted into their jobs by the American people, by a majority of voters.

The Supreme Court then upheld it.

The same President who, as you said, pushed for it, and signed it into law, and who was the candidate of the very party which also comprised the overwhelming majority of the Congressional votes which turned it into law, was then chosen by a majority of voters to be re-elected as President for a second term.

Now, that law is starting to finally go fully into effect.

This is how government works. All the key players above were either elected directly (or put into place indirectly by the former) by a majority of American voters. Your side (I assume), lost. It happens. This is a democracy.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by kapitalx on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:46PM (#6690907)
As an anecdote, we signed up my inlaws for $2/month after subsidies. Until now they couldn't afford the $900/month so they didn't have insurance. I'd say that's pretty affordable, almost free.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by trebor on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:14PM (#6691160)
It isn't free. Someone else is paying your parent's bill, either through their own premiums (which some say have tripled, though they have no prior conditions) or through taxes. Don't judge the price till the bill takes full effect; you may not be smiling.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by gte910h on Thursday November 07, 2013 @04:20PM (#6692479)
And people were paying for their medical care gotten in emergency rooms too
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by kapitalx on Saturday November 16, 2013 @01:22PM (#6745814)
Free from their point of view, not yours or mine! We're talking about affordability not where the money is coming from.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mkramlich on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:57PM (#6691005)
Think of it this way. Let's say the two of us were talking. And your real name was John Smith (making this up, I have no idea and not relevant). I had a choice between referring to you as "idiot" or "John." The latter is factually correct, neutral and lacks emotional triggers.

Using your logic, you shouldn't call Social Security Social Security you should call it FDR Forced Set Asides. Because you know, nobody likes being forced by the government to set aside their hard earned cash by some politician, and one who's personally and solely responsible for that happening. And which has absolutely no upside to it at all, of course. But wait, that wouldn't be true. So people don't do that. They call it Social Security. Because that is it's name, and is less loaded, and more politically neutral.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by aestra on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:15PM (#6691168)
Um, I don't consider "Obamacare" emotional, I consider it neutral. I just think it's a catchy nickname for legislation. It is neither negative or positive.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by gnaritas on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:52PM (#6691510)
It doesn't matter what you consider it, it matters what others consider it and it most certainly is emotional to most. That the affordable care act polls higher than Obamacare should make that clear to you.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by jack-r-abbit on Thursday November 07, 2013 @02:39PM (#6691882)
The real name isn't really neutral either. You have to consider at least a little bit that having the word "affordable" in the name is naturally going to bias people toward it. I doubt the Subsidized Care Act would poll very favorably.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by gnaritas on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:31PM (#6692182)
The real name doesn't have to be neutral, it has the benefit of being the actual name and thus is correct to use when you are being neutral.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by jack-r-abbit on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:52PM (#6692294)
You said: That the affordable care act polls higher than Obamacare should make that clear to you.

So I meant during the polling... one name already had bias baked into it by using the word affordable rather than the word subsidized. Not many people are keen on subsidies when you call them subsidies. But if you just say something is now more affordable and don't tell people it is more affordable because it is subsidized, you have baked in a bias from the start. So naturally that bias is going to be reflected in more favorable polling results.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by aestra on Thursday November 07, 2013 @02:29PM (#6691813)
Ok, is it supposed to be negative or positive?
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by gnaritas on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:32PM (#6692186)
Not relevant.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by aestra on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:58PM (#6692341)
Of course it's relevant. I (and every other person I know personally) have been calling it by it's shorthand Obamacare when discussing it and I would like to know if we have been using this "emotional" word to portray the bill positively or negatively.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by awj on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:42PM (#6691405)
> Um, I don't consider "Obamacare" emotional, I consider it neutral.

Read some of the opposition to it. For many people it is not a neutral name.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by Permit on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:30PM (#6690771)
Please. We call the "Patriot Act" the "Patriot Act". We called SOPA by its name despite disagreeing that it would "Stop Online Piracy".
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:08PM (#6691103)
Its not "the Patriot Act". Its "the USA PATRIOT Act". And USA PATRIOT is not just a ridiculous emotional appeal embedded into a name, its also an acronym for "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism".
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by jack-r-abbit on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:21PM (#6691220)
I find it hard to believe the long title came first and just happened to condense to USA PATRIOT. That had to be at least partially a backronym[1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backronym

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by timdiggerm on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:56PM (#6690999)
This is as ridiculous as Stallman's insisting on calling things by the wrong name all the time.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by skwirl on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:28PM (#6690749)
What do you call the PATRIOT act?
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by ctdonath on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:34PM (#6690804)
Treason.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by skwirl on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:44PM (#6690880)
So when it comes up for renewal, you go around saying "I hope they don't renew treason this year." That use of language must make communication somewhat difficult.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by lylejohnson on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:44PM (#6690887)
Quoting from the Wikipedia article [1] on the same:

President Obama endorsed the nickname, saying, "I have no problem with people saying Obama cares. I do care."[2] Because of the number of "Obamacare" search engine queries, the Department of Health and Human Services purchased Google advertisements, triggered by the term, to direct people to the official HHS site.[3] In March 2012, the Obama reelection campaign embraced the term "Obamacare", urging Obama's supporters to post Twitter messages that begin, "I like #Obamacare because...".[4]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordab...

[2] http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20092578-503544.html

[3] http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1210/HHS_buys_ObamaCa...

[4] http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/217893-obam...

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by Uhhrrr on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:25PM (#6690722)
This is putting lipstick on a pig. The act makes purchasing a plan mandatory, and constrains the buying options.

Unsurprisingly, the ensuing decrease of supply and increase in demand is making health plans more expensive for a lot of people.

So, "Obamacare" might be more accurate.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by SkyMarshal on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:48PM (#6690928)
The term "Obamacare" has no semantic relation to your critiques whatsoever, so it's not more accurate at all.

If you really want to be both more accurate and more true to your critiques, try something like "ExpensiveCare" or "ConstrainedSupplyCare" or "BubbleDemandCare" or something like that. I could even see critics attempting something like "UnfairCare", referencing the fact that young healthy people with incomes are now paying for old/unhealthy/indigent people's healthcare in addition to their own.

But "Obamacare" is silly, non-descriptive, purely partisan, and universally detracts from any conversation about it.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by Uhhrrr on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:14PM (#6692080)
Merely by being non-descriptive, it's better than "Affordable Care Act".
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by toomuchtodo on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:50PM (#6690953)
Completely agree. We should have gone single-payer straight away instead of wasting time with for-profit market participants.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by undoware on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:41PM (#6690853)
Think about what you're asking for by implication.

Constraint-free purchase of health insurance would mean that I could sell you health insurance that would 'insure' that you could only be doctored by me, on my yoga mat, with a chainsaw. Someone less principled than me would have the same idea --- or one like it --- and sell a billion innocent souls a false comfort and a dangerous service. So someone would. Like someone has already sold those same people fake food that's killing them.

Do you like alive citizens, or dead ones? The utopia you seek may be for the machines and the undertakers. And the undertakertrons.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by viggity on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:31PM (#6691298)
give me a fucking break. people (including lots of loyal democrats) are getting their plans cancelled because their plans don't cover things they'll never need. Are you 60 years old, childless and single? Does your existing plan cover pediatric dental? No? PLAN CANCELLED.

http://www.propublica.org/article/answered-why-two-obama-loy...

My brother is a healthy, single, childless young college student who has a cheap, catastrophic plan to insure (aka share risk) for a major accident or major ailment (cancer, etc). He won't get to keep it after Dec 31st. Instead he'll have to pay a dramatically larger sum to offset risks that he doesn't have.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mahranch on Thursday November 07, 2013 @02:29PM (#6691807)
But now your brother won't be dropped when he does fall ill or get cancer. That was a common tactic among insurers. You didn't dot an I correctly on one of your forms? Dropped. And now that you're dropped, good luck finding another insurer with your "pre-existing condition".

Unless your brother is immortal, he will eventually fall ill or suffer an accident. Such is the nature of life. Some people live long & healthy lives, others get cancer at 25. You simply cannot know the future. Shared risk, in the greater scheme of things, is preferable to the alternatives.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by viggity on Thursday November 07, 2013 @09:26PM (#6694038)
That is the thing I can't stand about most liberals, they always think they know what's better for you than you do. Take your nanny state regulations and bother someone without their own brain.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mahranch on Friday November 08, 2013 @06:56AM (#6695605)
"they always think they know what's better for you than you do. Take your nanny state regulations and bother someone without their own brain."

Do you think people should be able to own and have their own nuclear weapons? How about biological weapons? What about murder? Should that be legal?

If you said no, then you do agree there needs to be some "nanny state regulations". We only differ on where the line should be drawn.

When people "grow up", they realize that the general populace isn't too bright. The world is filled with nutjobs, idiots and crazies. People who are downright evil. People who are sociopaths. Letting the "free market" sort them out is a fairy tale for the young and children.

I don't mean to sound condescending or harsh, it's just that I was once a libertarian myself (in my early to mid twenties.) I came to realize what a horrible ideology it was and when you see people making the same mistake you made, you can't help but try to help that person out.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by viggity on Friday November 08, 2013 @07:49AM (#6695767)
The ideology of individual liberty and the free market have turned the United States into the most powerful and prosperous nation the world has ever seen. The ideology of "government knows best" has produced the concentration camps of Nazi Germany, the gulags of Soviet Russia, the wholesale slaughter of tens of millions in Mao Zedong's Red China and the pinnacle of oppression: North Korea.

I'll let the results speak for themselves.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by viggity on Friday November 08, 2013 @07:23AM (#6695692)
"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - CS Lewis
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by undoware on Friday November 08, 2013 @01:47AM (#6694844)
I think that is precisely what your interlocutor is doing.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by bartcool on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:58PM (#6692349)
Peter Schiff made a persuasive argument that Obamacare is a giveaway from men to women, particlularly to single women of childbaring age.

Childless men who are incapable of getting pregnant _must_ carry pregnancy coverage under Obamacare.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKsKExy-7B4

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by awj on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:26PM (#6691253)
> So, "Obamacare" might be more accurate.

How does that follow?

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by japhyr on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:46PM (#6690903)
I agree with many of the responses here as well. The actual name, which I believe has tent titled parts [0], is a bit of marketing copy as well. But at least it's marketing copy that relates to the substance of the act.

Calling it Obamacare makes it personal, and this is about much more than Obama taking care of all of us.

I'd love to see a neutral name for the legislation itself. I am starting to call it "the current health care legislation".

[0] - http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/rights/law/

Edit: copying this as an edit to my first post, but leaving this here in case anyone replies.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by praxeologist on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:29PM (#6690756)
>universal affordable health care

I'm not so sure about the affordable part. Maybe all I see is people posting letters about their rates going up though. What is the argument against that from people who still support this legislation? Is it denied that prices have gone up in general or accepted and justified because of increased benefits on the plans?

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:57PM (#6691001)
> Maybe all I see is people posting letters about their rates going up though. What is the argument against that from people who still support this legislation?

That what you see is not representative, because along with those I see plenty of people that could not get private insurance at any price (e.g., for whom the cost was infinite) due to preexisting conditions that can get health insurance because of the ACA.

> Is it denied that prices have gone up in general

For like benefits, costs have gone down since the ACA was introduced, in part because of parts of the ACA that went into effect earlier, like the limit on profits which required refunding excess premiums (because health insurance, even prior to the ACA, was not an ideal competitive market but an oligopolistic one in which rents were being extracted, and this was a limit on the rents that could be extracted.)

With the minimum benefit levels effective for non-grandfathered plans some low-cost, low-benefit plans are going away. This, on its own, would increase the minimum price of private insurance after this stage of implementation of the ACA above what it was prior to this stage of the implementation. In addition, changes to rules on what factors can be used in price setting have shifted costs so that, compared to what they would be without those rule changes, prices for plans for young, currently healthy individuals have gone up, while prices for everyone else have (again, considering only the effect of that rules change) gone down.

Expanding the size of risk pools as the mandate does should slightly reduce overall prices, but that may be a lagging effect since it can't be factored in fully without a clear picture of the magnitude and how many people will opt out in favor of paying the penalties for non-insurance.

Additionally, subsidies have been made available to people at the low end of the scale to which the individual mandate applies; this doesn't help with total costs (ignoring the effect that coverage vs. non-coverage has on total healthcare costs, which is significant in the long term, but not necessarily the short term) but does help with affordability.

Even moreso, except in states that opted out of it, Medicaid expansion means a lot of people are getting coverage with no out-of-pocket cost that could not afford any coverage before.

But, yes, the people that could afford insurance and who paid the least for the coverage they were getting because of youth and current health are often going to be paying more.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by darkandbrooding on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:41PM (#6690851)
If all you see are reports about people's rates going up, then you are in a filter bubble - just like everyone else who consumes a majority of their news through personalized online sources. There are people in neighboring filter bubbles whose ACA-related stories are almost entirely about people saving money because of the new exchanges.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by beauzero on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:51PM (#6690955)
Please post links with people saving money. I have yet to see one that was genuine. I have seen actual evidence of people getting coverage that could not before.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mahranch on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:57PM (#6691002)
A search on google for the term "how obamacare has helped people" provides over 24 million results. Here are couple reports you can read at your leisure:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/six-stories-of-oba...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/ted-cruz-obamaca...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/i-am-obamacare-_n_4...

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by gnaritas on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:55PM (#6691542)
> I have yet to see one that was genuine.

Because you don't want to, it's as simple as that. If you were actually looking there's plenty of stories to find.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mkramlich on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:05PM (#6691083)
> Maybe all I see is people posting letters about their rates going up though.

a data point:

I also see a lot of people talking about God and Jesus and how they have a personal relationship with them, etc, etc. Personally I've never seen them. I have a guess as to the status of things in those situations.

Also I see a lot of "people" saying how Justin Bieber is, "like, so cute. OMG. he's so hawt! and a genius! omg. like, amazing. omg. omg". So clearly, this must be factually true, correct?

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by praxeologist on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:34PM (#6691329)
>So clearly, this must be factually true, correct?

I didn't say that. You shouldn't try to put words in someone else's mouth. I was mainly looking for some credible, unbiased facts. A lot of the positive anecdotes seem to be ignoring price reductions due to tax credits or something but I am not sure. Huffington Post's story has a family of 5 getting insurance for $100-something, while I see people saying their family went from like $600 to $1,000+.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mkramlich on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:50PM (#6691495)
> I didn't say that. You shouldn't try to put words in someone else's mouth.

I didn't say you said that. boggle

My point was to bring up the general phenomenon of:

-- some people are stupid

-- some people are ignorant (and/or draw conclusions from a very limited or ephemeral data set)

-- some people are liars

-- some people are malicious

-- some people spin

-- some "people", on the web, don't exist, or they're sock puppets

-- some people have subjective tastes ("Burgers taste bad." --> Therefore, all burgers taste bad for everybody. What?)

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by ajross on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:20PM (#6690679)
It's the "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act", or ACA (oddly never PPACA in real usage that I've seen, though I see wikipedia lists that acronym).
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by jack-r-abbit on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:28PM (#6690744)
But the name is a joke. I take offense to it labeling "health care" as being "affordable." It does nothing to change the cost of health care. It still costs the same. But for a lot of people, someone else will be paying for it.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by davvolun on Friday November 15, 2013 @12:23PM (#6740681)
I disagree. The name 'obamacare' began as an attack on the legislation, but the other side has taken over the term as in 'Obama cares', so in some circles it's derogatory, in some it's posiive, but I think both sides accept and are relatively happy with the term--for better or worse.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by natmaster on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:18PM (#6690658)
And the Patriot Act is very Patriotic!
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by awj on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:22PM (#6691224)
...what does that have to do with anything? It's the actual name of the act. Making up a new name for something to signal your disapproval is the fastest way I can think of to indicate you aren't capable of discussion.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by fsckin on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:22PM (#6690700)
Some would argue that it's too patriotic.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by mistakenot on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:28PM (#6690742)
Whatever. But it isn't called Bushoppression by anyone, it is referred to by its actual name.
Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by natmaster on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:32PM (#6690794)
Noone calls Obamacare Obamasux or something stupid like the name you came up with.

A more apt analogy would be Bushtactics.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by snowwrestler on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:41PM (#6690857)
I think that ship sailed when the President himself started calling it Obamacare.

It's a controversial topic on its substance; the name does not change that either way.

Re:Denial-of-service tool targeting Healthcare.gov site disc... by japhyr on Thursday November 07, 2013 @12:52PM (#6690965)
The name actually does affect people's opinion on the subject. I don't fully trust this source yet [0], but I do trust that the name affects people's opinions.

[0] - http://www.policymic.com/articles/65625/why-americans-are-ok...