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Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by subpixel on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:28PM (#6684384)
I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war.

Right now Silk Road is the eBay of drugs, where convenience is it's competitive advantage. I can get some drug without visiting a shady person in some shady place, but the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US the bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc. A huge part of the US war on drugs takes place among and between those parties, with the US not always supporting the side you might expect.

I'd be more excited about an Etsy of drugs, where people could buy whatever they want straight from the source, bypassing the blood trail. Good luck getting packages delivered from Afghanistan or Colombia though.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by nostromo on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @02:42PM (#6684952)
But the competitive advantage of druglords is controlling the means of distribution, not the means of cultivation. So, SilkRoad could help bypass those monopolized distribution channels and undermine the druglord's competitive advantage.

For example, if a druglord is competing directly with a mom-and-pop drug cultivator on SilkRoad -- the drug lord has higher costs (bribery, paramilitary force, etc.) and only marginally lower COGS from scale. Because they are unable to intimidate or kill other cultivators, like they do in meat space, the druglord could be at a real disadvantage.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jzzskijj on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:30PM (#6685295)
The druglord would wipe out the mom-and-pop cultivator and happily live ever after with their higher costs.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by freshhawk on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:05PM (#6685506)
That seems like it wouldn't be cost effective for them if there is even a small amount of anonymity between the buyers and cultivators.

I mean, cartels have been pumped up to pretty ridiculous heights by the war on drugs but it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all."

Even considering that their MO is more along the lines of picking out the ones they can find and making a gruesome spectacle to scare the rest it still seems unrealistic, although so do a lot of things happening with drugs cartels these days to be fair.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by pizza234 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:22PM (#6685591)
>> it's not at the point where it would be realistic to have them say "here is a list of a few hundred usernames from SilkRoad spread out all over North America. Find them and murder them all."

This is not exact, unfortunately, because it depends also on some other factors. If the drug lords decide that they want to impose the fact that they don't accept opposition, they are actually going to do exactly that. They've done it already for several bloggers, it would make little difference if they decided to do it for the little indipendent dealers.

Keep in mind that in order to take out a few hundred independent dealears, they only need to torture and kill a few, and have the word spread.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by protek on Thursday November 07, 2013 @04:03AM (#6688392)
"They've done it already for several bloggers" as in people that blog about drugs? Could you elaborate?
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by ebrenes on Friday November 08, 2013 @01:07PM (#6697904)
Another example was when Anonymous decided to start outing Cartel members. They kidnapped one of the people involved and Anonymous declared a truce to get that person released.

source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/member-anonymous-relea...

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by alasarmas on Thursday November 07, 2013 @10:46AM (#6689971)
Here's one example. Googling for something like "cartel kills social media activist" will probably yield more.

http://techland.time.com/2011/11/10/fourth-blogger-reportedl...

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by lem72 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:13PM (#6685545)
But the Mom and Pop shop can now be anonymous and the evil druglord will have a hard time finding them since they can't go torture the street dealers that peddle Mom&Popshop & Co drugs.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by pizza234 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:25PM (#6685606)
There is no certainty of anonymity, especially in Mexico, for two reasons.

First, drug cartels have very easily control of the IT infrastructures, and second, they now employ hackers exactly to keep the internet information under control.

They've killed several bloggers already, and you can be sure they thought they were anonymous.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by spikels on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @05:15PM (#6685883)
The cartels can employ all the hackers and torture all the bloggers they want but it will still be very hard to find sellers on SilkRoad. You will need to break Tor, trace BitCoins, trace deliveries, or trick sellers. This takes national or even international resources (NSA, FBI, Interpol, etc.). And they will have to do this in the US and Europe not Mexico.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by iskander on Thursday November 07, 2013 @01:03AM (#6687819)
>You will need to break Tor, trace BitCoins, trace deliveries, or trick sellers.

These aren't all of equivalent difficulty...

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by draugadrotten on Thursday November 07, 2013 @10:19AM (#6689749)
>it will still be very hard to find sellers on SilkRoad.

Apparently not hard enough. It is being done in Europe already.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Six-More-Silk-Road-Drug-Deale...

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by dwaltrip on Thursday November 07, 2013 @02:12AM (#6688064)
They would be fighting a losing war (ironically, like the drug wars itself). Tracking down random silk road sellers is not really that easy.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jlgreco on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @05:09PM (#6685851)
Why would mom and pop want to base out of Mexico?
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by Erwin on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:16PM (#6685557)
Here's what I'd consider the Etsy of drugs: http://www.rechemco.net/ -- they apparently synthesize the various active ingredients in their own lab, so you can get your 99% pure version of say, the various popular anti-narcoleptic drugs popular as concentration aids.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jbackus on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:58PM (#6684621)
You can use digital black markets like the silk road as an analogue for legalization though. Forget how the vendors obtain the drugs for a second and just analyze the differences in distribution and consumption between offline and online drug trade.

Offline there is: - competition via violence - political narcoterrorism - profit maximization by product dilution - profit maximization by product deception (most street MDMA is amphetamine+nBOME mixture)

Online there is: - competition via quality, price (violence impossible in anonymous marketplace) - political separation via anonymity - drastically reduced product dilution (people do reviews with sources like ecstasydata.org) - drastically reduced product deception (see "The LSD Avengers" for example)

When you contrast these aspects you see that the online marketplaces do operate like a free market with the biggest difference being the incentives associated with deceptive vending. I think thats valuable just because it provides a real world simulation for what variables of legalization would look like without forcing any one country to take the initial plunge by themselves.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by OvidNaso on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:22PM (#6685232)
Violence amongst end user drug dealers is very rare and confined to specific, very poor, areas. Wholesale is the only place where you start to see significant amounts of cash, and hence most of the problems, and that has zero differences between offline and on. There is no 'political narcoterrorism' between the guys selling 8ths of coke in the neighborhood. You're also mischaracterizing the drug trade with regards to consumer habits. Drug users communicate about dealers and products the same way people communicate about every other local business. The internet has greatly expanded and enhanced this ability, but prior to the Internet, local businesses, just like local drug dealers, operated by word of mouth and competed in many facets of service. We know this as drug quality has gone up and up over the years.

Remember, the vast majority of offline drug deals do not consist of driving to the hood to pick up something from a gangster. I think this mis-perception clouds a lot of the analysis of operations like the Silk Road.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by ledge on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @11:43PM (#6687594)
The majority of personal use sales are not conducted with a "gangster", true, but the small-time college ecstasy or coke dealer conducting those personal use sales IS making regular trips to the hood, purchasing from people who are hardened criminals. They expose themselves to a lot of risk in doing this.

You don't have to move far up the chain before you see some serious violence. Personal use weed dealer? Probably not going to get killed. But robbed? Yes, definitely, seen it happen many times. Personal use coke, ecstasy, heroin dealer? Much more likely to experience violence. The dealer one level above, supplying the personal use dealers? They get killed all the time, despite not being drug kingpins in any sense. It only costs 1000$-2000$ to have someone killed in many parts of the US, so that should say something about the chance of violence that small-time dealers face.

Silk Road was more than personal use sales, I'd bet the majority of its revenue came from pounds and half pounds of weed, sheets of LSD, and orders of 500+ ecstasy pills. Heroin and coke haven't caught on as much yet in the online scene, with prices still a little above what well-connected users can get on the streets, but give it time. Also keep in mind that the online drug scene is more than just SR/BMR/Sheep and that there are private forums that deal strictly in wholesale.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by ssharp on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @10:56PM (#6687406)
Additionally, although many street dealers operate in areas you'd probably associate with being high-crime, the drug gangs are pretty aware that customers need some sense of safety when buying product and don't have any more reason to see their customers robbed or assaulted than any legit shop owner.

If you're interested in an observed account of a drug gang, there is a book called "Gang Leader for a Day" where the author spent a lot of time in a housing project, with the guy who ran that faction of the gang. It has its flaws but it was an interesting read:

http://www.amazon.com/Gang-Leader-Day-Sudhir-Venkatesh-ebook...

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by dobbsbob on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @07:22PM (#6686612)
It's also a mis-perception to assume the hood is where all the gangsters are, a block outside the poverty stricken areas here the gangsters are suburban kids from affluent neighborhoods who are just as violent when it comes to protection rackets, extortion and taxing minor dealers.

Anybody running a small delivery line is almost always carrying an illegal gun, and willing to shoot competitors over peddling 8ths of coke.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by philfreo on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @02:08PM (#6684707)
> violence impossible in anonymous marketplace

if you read the report about the 1st silk road, you'll see that's not true

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jbackus on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @02:16PM (#6684772)
Alright. Let's assume the massive difference in quantity of violence is substantial. We're talking 10s of thousands dead via cartel trade vs. 2 alleged attempted hits on the silk road. Even then that was the operator of the marketplace defending users, it wasn't a vendor killing another vendor to gain a competitive advantage.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by OvidNaso on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:25PM (#6685255)
But your analysis specifically excluded the source of all of this violence, the wholesale procurement of the drugs by the end user dealers. None of that is different with the Silk Road.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by ds9 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:55PM (#6685448)
That's the locus of the violence. The source of the violence (and of most of the other harms) is the prohibition.

Alcohol and tobbacco dealers aren't involved in shootings in the streets - instead we find them in their shops, carefully following laws and doing business peacefully. Nor are their customers suffering from adulterated goods, or committing robberies to afford black-market prices.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by dobbsbob on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @09:03PM (#6687007)
Yep, exactly. The Zetas cartel for example, do not necessarily import & export themselves. They are simply a gang of thugs who move into an area already teeming with drug smugglers/dealers, and extort them for taxes. Since these drug dealers can't go to the police for protection since they are doing something illegal they either pay up or the streets turn into a bloodbath. If you notice the Zetas are mainly concentrated in Northern Mexico where the major smuggling routes into the US are. By controlling those they can siphon off 20-30% of all drug shipments from every other cartel into the US and never have to touch drugs themselves, so are unlikely to be caught. They are just parasites off other people's hard work of manufacturing, smuggling and building sales networks. This business model will only work under prohibition.

Zetas do not hold up trucks full of tequilla and beer going into the US for extortion because they would be arrested. When your business is legal the solution for dealing with thugs is simple: call the cops or sue them. When you are gray area/illegal your only negotiation is to pay them or pick up a gun creating an all out war.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by toadi on Thursday November 07, 2013 @03:54AM (#6688367)
During the prohibition this was a bit different.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jbackus on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:09PM (#6685524)
It depends on the drugs. There are a lot of cases of producers selling on these market places. Look at a lot of the marijuana vendors, the vetted LSD vendors, the mushroom vendors, etc. Beyond that, there is violence involved in later steps of the drug trade: smuggling, gang turf wars.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by DanBC on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:18PM (#6685567)
{I am strongly in favour of legalising all drugs}

There are problems with some of the manufacture of cannabis. Criminal gangs use trafficked workers, forcing them to work in cannabis farms.

If I was a criminal gang using slaves to grow cannabis I think I'd market it as some home grown organic low yield crop with images of open fields and nice trees.

Just like eggs from caged hens don't show battery farms, but happy chickens walking in green fields. http://www.ecolovers.co.uk/wordpress/labelling-matters-the-r... etc.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by dobbsbob on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @07:30PM (#6686655)
Maybe in Mexico they do this. Here there are investors who buy up a dozen houses through shell corps and hire one grower who sets everything up, and is paid a lot of money. The grower then hires people to maintain and protect the grow usually for pretty good money as well. http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/3268.html
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by DanBC on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @08:25PM (#6686857)
> Maybe in Mexico they do this.

It happens in England.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by ssharp on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @07:20PM (#6686602)
Silk Road was not an anonymous marketplace. Buyers had to provide some identity and address to sellers in order to receive shipment. There are obvious geographic limitations with how anonymous a person could be while still receiving the goods they want.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by stcredzero on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:48PM (#6684547)
> I'd be more excited about an Etsy of drugs

I think you mean more of an Amazon Marketplace of drugs.

> the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US the bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc.

If the information and payment infrastructure is good enough, it should make producers and shippers invisible to other producers and shippers, including the paramilitaries and drug-lords.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by schenecstasy on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:21PM (#6685222)
I'm looking for an Etsy for drugs. I want my synthetic opiates cradled in a lace & cordoroy kerchief that states "rustic charm".
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by angersock on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:37PM (#6685342)
Vintage blotters?
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by dobbsbob on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @07:23PM (#6686614)
It's called Alibaba. I haven't checked in about a year but I recall finding MDMA precursors, Meth precursors and bulk Opium for sale on it.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by lowkeykiwi on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @10:21PM (#6687250)
mmmmm bulk opium
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by Alex3917 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:44PM (#6685385)
For what it's worth, you can currently buy drugs on both Amazon marketplace and Etsy. It's not even a hypothetical.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by stcredzero on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:13PM (#6685542)
In this context, we really mean illegal drugs. You obviously know this and are just being annoyingly pedantic.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by Alex3917 on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:33PM (#6685663)
There are plenty of gray area substances, e.g. precursors to schedule 1 drugs.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by joshontheweb on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:45PM (#6684520)
| but the drugs (in general) are still coming to the US th bloody, violent way via paramilitaries, druglords, etc.

Not necessarily. A lot of them appear to be shipped in via post from outside the US direct to the buyer.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by subpixel on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:54PM (#6684595)
I was trying to point out that the drug war doesn't begin or end at the border.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jbackus on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:59PM (#6684641)
Yes, but that is where most of the enforcement is and therefore most of the violence.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by XorNot on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:30PM (#6685297)
Wow, this is incredibly uninformed.

For one thing, no one's bothering to attack the US border, whereas in Brazil the government is fighting numerous active paramilitary groups which are basically all just fighting each other for control of the drug trade.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by jbackus on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:04PM (#6685501)
Yeah didn't really think that through before writing, majority is the wrong word. I didn't mean attacking the border, I just meant that a lot of the violence occurs near the border as most cartels set up shop in locations most appropriate for later distribution into the U.S.
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by kin on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @01:48PM (#6684548)
The previous silk road claimed to have many listings where the chemists themselves produced and shipped from Europe
Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by tedks on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @09:38PM (#6687121)
IIRC, the biggest drug on the Silk Road was marijuana, which was probably not cartel grown. There are plenty of places in the US where it's effectively legal to grow marijuana, and the growers who have a legal enterprise almost certainly produce plenty on the side for the black market.

Cocaine and heroin are different stories, but are probably the exception compared to marijuana, various drugs that need to be lab-synthesized, and prescription pills being resold.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by Havoc on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @03:01PM (#6685075)
>I don't see the Silk Roads of the world making much difference with regard to the drug war.

It has symbolic value I think. While I don't feel particularly anarchistic, I think a solid dose of a rebellious streak in society is good. Just to keep the government on its toes. A counterforce to governments tendency to do NSA scandal type stuff if you will.

Re:Silk Road 2.0 Launches by brianbreslin on Wednesday November 06, 2013 @04:51PM (#6685757)
When you suggested etsy of drugs, my first thought was custom made to order small batches of drugs. Not farmer to addict direct sales.