News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by cryptoz on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:10AM (#6423172)
I disagree very strongly with that. Here are a few rational reasons that someone may choose to not have their money in a bank:

- Moral conflicts. Most banks use your money for purposes that many people consider evil, so choosing to not give them your money is a rational choice.

- Lack of trust. Many banks over the last century have run out of money and been unable to honour withdrawal demands/requests. It's reasonable and logical not to trust them to keep your money and give it to you when you ask.

- Inconvenience. If you don't have very much money, having a bank account is a drain on your resources (fees, mostly) and your money is not immediately accessible.

There are plenty of other reasons, too. Running away from people you owe money to is certainly not the only rational reason for not having a bank account.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by notahacker on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:39AM (#6423254)
Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen). I'd actually consider this to be the classic example of irrational mistrust based on a limited understanding of who actually loses out as a result of bank failures, and overconfidence in one's ability to keep hold of their cash.

The inconvenience argument might be true for some[1] people in some countries but is a complete non-starter in my country where retail bank accounts with a positive balance usually are usually fee-free, as are most forms of transfer between domestic bank accounts, most debit card payments and cash withdrawals from most ATMs. It's hideously inconvenient not to take advantage of all that ([1] I understand that somewhere like the US depositors' costs from basic use of the banking system might sometimes be even higher than those levied by non-bank financial service providers they use instead...)

Granted, the moral conflicts argument has a bit more standing, but arguably only if you apply the same standard of scrutiny to other entities you choose to purchase goods and services from (most of whom will deposit your payment in a bank account...). It's not like there aren't banking service providers that have at least seen the marketing benefits of an ethical stance

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by jellicle on Saturday September 21, 2013 @03:19PM (#6424096)
> Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen). I'd actually consider this to be the classic example of irrational mistrust based on a limited understanding of who actually loses out as a result of bank failures

Pretty much every developed country has spoken in the last few years of forcing depositors to take losses in the event of bank failures, and some have actually done it. Governmental deposit insurance SHOULD be inviolate, but that isn't the way the regulators are talking and acting.

Meanwhile, how many HNers are currently praying that Mt. Gox will stay liquid long enough to give them back their money?

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by aj12345 on Saturday September 21, 2013 @08:30PM (#6425225)
Can you please provide examples of developed countries speaking "in the last few years of forcing depositors to take losses in the event of bank failures" and which ones "have actually done it"? Cyprus is the only example that I can think of that discussed it and I can't think of any that have actually done it.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by thyrsus on Saturday September 21, 2013 @09:42PM (#6425431)
According to this http://wealthcycles.com/features/cypress-bailout-deal-is-pil... deposits under 100,000 euros were exempt, with a 40% forfeiture of amounts over 100,000. There were other proposals, but that appears to have been the actual outcome.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by aj12345 on Tuesday September 24, 2013 @08:19PM (#6441804)
So in other words, insured deposits were paid out fully and uninsured deposits got a big haircut. Sounds like the correct outcome to me.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by wintersFright on Sunday September 22, 2013 @08:24AM (#6426525)
Europe has repeatedly stated cyprus is a template for future bailouts.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by mahyarm on Sunday September 22, 2013 @01:36AM (#6425930)
The people waiting for their money on Mt.Gox should change it back to bitcoin and take the possible hit. The ones waiting for cash withdrawal are playing chicken with Mt.Gox's liquidity problem, and that is the risk they take in exchange for the ~$20 premium they have now.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by waps on Saturday September 21, 2013 @10:54PM (#6425614)
This sort of argument is what the article complains about. Yes there are easy protections that prevent very rich people from losing money. (The $100k limit simply causes them to open a lot of accounts. Which is why you have mint.com to keep track of it all, I guess. But any rich person will have 4-5 $99999 balance accounts, and have 4-5 of them in multiple countries (US, EU, Switzerland, Dubai, Australia for example), and they know why. There's firms that will arrange it for you).

Suppose you're poor. You do not have the money to support yourself 2 months. You call the helpdesk for cox, they come and repair your cable modem, but somehow they "blame" the problem on you, and that's $250 for riding out thank you very much.

Now let's assess what happens in 3 situations : 1) you have a bank account - the money's gone the moment they say you spent it with them - you have no recourse - you call them - they've got everything they want, you have zero negotiating position - even if you achieve the impossible and talk them out of it, the money's gone for 2+ months 2) you pay by credit card (obviously only available to "the rich", granted, not quite "the 1%", but I'm pretty sure >20% of Americans effectively don't have access to a credit card) - the money's gone the moment they charge you - you call them up, ask what's going on, they don't cooperate - you threaten them with a chargeback - they will suddenly become very cooperative 3) you don't have a back account (with positive balance) - their payment request bounces - they have no recourse - they call you and ask if there's anything they can do - they're pretty cooperative

The "mystery" of why poor people, students, ... go with option 3 is not much of a mystery to me. It's because option 2 is not available to them.

The same goes for being a customer of any service firm. Internet, telephone, car insurance, ...

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by nullc on Saturday September 21, 2013 @01:18PM (#6423643)
> but is a complete non-starter in my country where retail bank accounts with a positive balance usually are usually fee-free,

But not penalty free. A few months ago, I clicked a form twice in my online brokerage and accidentally doubled a ACH transfer from my bank account. Since I was transferring more than half, the double transaction was too much. My bank hit me with a $25 fee.

No big deal to me— but to many poor people a $25 fee could start a spiral of overdrafts which would leave them hopelessly short money. To someone in that situation an arrangement which charged them 5% per transaction would be preferable to one which carried any risk at all of an overdraft spiral of doom.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by toomuchtodo on Saturday September 21, 2013 @05:57PM (#6424749)
>Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen).

I don't recall the exact date, but within the last two weeks Marketplace on NPR had an interview with several financial executives about the 2008 collapse. One of the execs had his wife run to the ATM to withdraw the maximum limit ($500) when money market funds broke the buck, and even GE couldn't get short term funding. He was seriously concerned about the ability to get to his own funds.

Being in a developed country doesn't mean your money doesn't have any risk when tied up at an institution.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by clarkm on Saturday September 21, 2013 @04:42PM (#6424434)
Do you not consider Cyprus a developed country? Just a few months ago, many of its citizens had their deposits garnished, some at rates of 40%. How about Greece? There were talks of doing the same there.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by kazagistar on Saturday September 21, 2013 @05:16PM (#6424583)
Yes; the state failed to tax at high enough rates, and had to tax after the fact to pay of the debt they accumulated.

I guess if you want your money safe, store it somewhere that can do their finances properly?

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by _delirium on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:32AM (#6423238)
> Many banks over the last century have run out of money and been unable to honour withdrawal demands/requests. It's reasonable and logical not to trust them to keep your money and give it to you when you ask.

Within the last century, yes, but quite far back within it: the last time anyone with modest amounts of money in the U.S. lost deposits in a bank failure was 1933, the year the FDIC was created.

You can still lose money in a bank failure if your deposits are above the FDIC insurance limits, but poor people by definition would not have that much money, so it wouldn't explain their choice not to use banks.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by Plasmoid on Saturday September 21, 2013 @02:08PM (#6423838)
The bigger risk if your poor is not having access to your money while the FDIC sorts out the problems. Now, I don't know how long it would take to restore access to your money in a bank closure but, for a lot of these people, having your funds frozen for a week or two would be crippling.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by shawn-furyan on Saturday September 21, 2013 @03:25PM (#6424118)
There was a This American Life episode during the financial crisis when interest in bank failures was high. They followed an federal takeover of a bank, and from what I recall, it was an extremely swift and surgical procedure. The don't inform the bank ahead of time when they're going to take it over, because the last thing they want is a bank run. For that reason they also try to disrupt banking hours as little as possible if at all.

[edit: here's the episode, very interesting listen: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/377/S...]

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by ben1040 on Saturday September 21, 2013 @03:47PM (#6424193)
There are also instances though where the FDIC can't find another bank willing to acquire the failed institution, so it can't just close on a Friday and then reopen on Monday as a branch of a new bank.

One of those happened just last week:

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/commbank-ct.html

So it seems like in an instance like this, while you get a check for your insured deposits from the FDIC, your bank is gone and presumably any auto-debits or outstanding checks would fail to clear. You get to wait for the FDIC to mail you a check. Then you'd have to find yourself a new bank. This seems like something that would be fairly disruptive even if you are not poor.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by a3n on Saturday September 21, 2013 @03:42PM (#6424177)
If a bank failed, how long would it take to be reimbursed by the FDIC? Probably much longer than a poor person could weather.

Also, if you chose to forgo paper statements to "save the environment" (and reduce the bank's costs), and you were lax in downloading your statements, it would probably take even longer to be reimbursed.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by _delirium on Saturday September 21, 2013 @04:29PM (#6424373)
Typically funds are available by the next business day, at most within a few days: http://www.snopes.com/business/bank/fdic.asp

No bank statements or formal claim for reimbursement is needed; the process is entirely automatic and usually done in less than 24 hours.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by ceejayoz on Saturday September 21, 2013 @04:33PM (#6424398)
> If a bank failed, how long would it take to be reimbursed by the FDIC? Probably much longer than a poor person could weather.

In most cases, the FDIC takes over the bank and runs it (in a matter of hours), specifically to prevent this sort of impact.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by woofyman on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:22AM (#6423211)
USA banks are federally insured, so there's no risk in losing your money.

Running away from creditors is not a valid reason. They can sue you. They can't directly take your money.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by cdh on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:35AM (#6423244)
Well, that's not quite true. There is always a small risk of losing some (or even all) of your money, particularly if you have a large amount in your account. Obviously that risk is very, very low for smaller amounts of money.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by bhickey on Saturday September 21, 2013 @02:44PM (#6423964)
There are risks we should be concerned about, and risks we should not be concerned about. If you stuff money under your matress, the risk of losing it to a house fire or robbery are several orders of magnitude greater than losing it in a bank run.

Assuming your account is under the FDIC limit, how could you lose money on an insured account? Suppose there's a massive bank run and the Fed has to print oodles of cash to repay depositors. This leads to runaway inflation that occurs over a very short period. If you could have otherwise exchanged your cash on hand for a different currency, sure you would have lost money.

Compared with the actual risks of being unbanked, this is a hallucinatory concern.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by woofyman on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:42AM (#6423268)
250k is the insured limit. You can open accounts in multiple banks if you have more cash than that.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by RougeFemme on Saturday September 21, 2013 @12:06PM (#6423362)
The biggest reason is the over-abundance of fees that eat into your balance.