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Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by notahacker on Saturday September 21, 2013 @11:39AM (#6423254)
Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen). I'd actually consider this to be the classic example of irrational mistrust based on a limited understanding of who actually loses out as a result of bank failures, and overconfidence in one's ability to keep hold of their cash.

The inconvenience argument might be true for some[1] people in some countries but is a complete non-starter in my country where retail bank accounts with a positive balance usually are usually fee-free, as are most forms of transfer between domestic bank accounts, most debit card payments and cash withdrawals from most ATMs. It's hideously inconvenient not to take advantage of all that ([1] I understand that somewhere like the US depositors' costs from basic use of the banking system might sometimes be even higher than those levied by non-bank financial service providers they use instead...)

Granted, the moral conflicts argument has a bit more standing, but arguably only if you apply the same standard of scrutiny to other entities you choose to purchase goods and services from (most of whom will deposit your payment in a bank account...). It's not like there aren't banking service providers that have at least seen the marketing benefits of an ethical stance

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by jellicle on Saturday September 21, 2013 @03:19PM (#6424096)
> Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen). I'd actually consider this to be the classic example of irrational mistrust based on a limited understanding of who actually loses out as a result of bank failures

Pretty much every developed country has spoken in the last few years of forcing depositors to take losses in the event of bank failures, and some have actually done it. Governmental deposit insurance SHOULD be inviolate, but that isn't the way the regulators are talking and acting.

Meanwhile, how many HNers are currently praying that Mt. Gox will stay liquid long enough to give them back their money?

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by aj12345 on Saturday September 21, 2013 @08:30PM (#6425225)
Can you please provide examples of developed countries speaking "in the last few years of forcing depositors to take losses in the event of bank failures" and which ones "have actually done it"? Cyprus is the only example that I can think of that discussed it and I can't think of any that have actually done it.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by thyrsus on Saturday September 21, 2013 @09:42PM (#6425431)
According to this http://wealthcycles.com/features/cypress-bailout-deal-is-pil... deposits under 100,000 euros were exempt, with a 40% forfeiture of amounts over 100,000. There were other proposals, but that appears to have been the actual outcome.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by aj12345 on Tuesday September 24, 2013 @08:19PM (#6441804)
So in other words, insured deposits were paid out fully and uninsured deposits got a big haircut. Sounds like the correct outcome to me.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by wintersFright on Sunday September 22, 2013 @08:24AM (#6426525)
Europe has repeatedly stated cyprus is a template for future bailouts.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by mahyarm on Sunday September 22, 2013 @01:36AM (#6425930)
The people waiting for their money on Mt.Gox should change it back to bitcoin and take the possible hit. The ones waiting for cash withdrawal are playing chicken with Mt.Gox's liquidity problem, and that is the risk they take in exchange for the ~$20 premium they have now.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by waps on Saturday September 21, 2013 @10:54PM (#6425614)
This sort of argument is what the article complains about. Yes there are easy protections that prevent very rich people from losing money. (The $100k limit simply causes them to open a lot of accounts. Which is why you have mint.com to keep track of it all, I guess. But any rich person will have 4-5 $99999 balance accounts, and have 4-5 of them in multiple countries (US, EU, Switzerland, Dubai, Australia for example), and they know why. There's firms that will arrange it for you).

Suppose you're poor. You do not have the money to support yourself 2 months. You call the helpdesk for cox, they come and repair your cable modem, but somehow they "blame" the problem on you, and that's $250 for riding out thank you very much.

Now let's assess what happens in 3 situations : 1) you have a bank account - the money's gone the moment they say you spent it with them - you have no recourse - you call them - they've got everything they want, you have zero negotiating position - even if you achieve the impossible and talk them out of it, the money's gone for 2+ months 2) you pay by credit card (obviously only available to "the rich", granted, not quite "the 1%", but I'm pretty sure >20% of Americans effectively don't have access to a credit card) - the money's gone the moment they charge you - you call them up, ask what's going on, they don't cooperate - you threaten them with a chargeback - they will suddenly become very cooperative 3) you don't have a back account (with positive balance) - their payment request bounces - they have no recourse - they call you and ask if there's anything they can do - they're pretty cooperative

The "mystery" of why poor people, students, ... go with option 3 is not much of a mystery to me. It's because option 2 is not available to them.

The same goes for being a customer of any service firm. Internet, telephone, car insurance, ...

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by nullc on Saturday September 21, 2013 @01:18PM (#6423643)
> but is a complete non-starter in my country where retail bank accounts with a positive balance usually are usually fee-free,

But not penalty free. A few months ago, I clicked a form twice in my online brokerage and accidentally doubled a ACH transfer from my bank account. Since I was transferring more than half, the double transaction was too much. My bank hit me with a $25 fee.

No big deal to me— but to many poor people a $25 fee could start a spiral of overdrafts which would leave them hopelessly short money. To someone in that situation an arrangement which charged them 5% per transaction would be preferable to one which carried any risk at all of an overdraft spiral of doom.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by toomuchtodo on Saturday September 21, 2013 @05:57PM (#6424749)
>Mistrust of banks' ability to honour withdrawal requests is largely irrational in a developed country given the existence of government-backed deposit insurance (and the much greater risk of having your cash stolen).

I don't recall the exact date, but within the last two weeks Marketplace on NPR had an interview with several financial executives about the 2008 collapse. One of the execs had his wife run to the ATM to withdraw the maximum limit ($500) when money market funds broke the buck, and even GE couldn't get short term funding. He was seriously concerned about the ability to get to his own funds.

Being in a developed country doesn't mean your money doesn't have any risk when tied up at an institution.

Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by clarkm on Saturday September 21, 2013 @04:42PM (#6424434)
Do you not consider Cyprus a developed country? Just a few months ago, many of its citizens had their deposits garnished, some at rates of 40%. How about Greece? There were talks of doing the same there.
Re:The Real Reason The Poor Go Without Bank Accounts by kazagistar on Saturday September 21, 2013 @05:16PM (#6424583)
Yes; the state failed to tax at high enough rates, and had to tax after the fact to pay of the debt they accumulated.

I guess if you want your money safe, store it somewhere that can do their finances properly?