News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by wavefunction on Saturday August 31, 2013 @11:53PM (#6309086)
Shutting this guy up via prison also provides some value in maintaining the fiction of the efficacy of polygraphs, so it may not necessarily be an endorsement of his methods.

It is my opinion that much of modern LEO's abilities to solve crimes are based on maintaining a facade of authority built up by the common perception of their methods. Specifically I mean the methods of analysis like hand-writing analysis, polygraphs, and even more "scientific" methods like finger-prints or DNA evidence. These methods of investigation are often portrayed in popular media as 100% effective in providing proof, however their real rates of effectiveness are quite a bit lower.

Much of these techniques are not as effective as claimed or perceived, but are used as a tool to bring pressure to bear on criminals to cause them to implicate themselves indirectly or confess completely to their crimes.

Much crime is solved merely by rounding up the "likely suspects" and tricking them into thinking that the case is already solved and the criminal just has a chance to admit and gain some sort of ameliorative to their sentence.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by Amadou on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:28AM (#6309251)
It is my opinion that much of modern LEO's abilities to solve crimes are based on maintaining a facade of authority built up by the common perception of their methods.

Only slightly removed from your point - FBI profilers are completely bogus, they employ the same techniques as fortune tellers.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/11/12/071112fa_fact_...

http://wordsofsocraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2007/11/fbi-crimin...

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by pdkl95 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @08:40AM (#6310137)
While it's obvious that most "forensic techniques" are at best pseudoscience or folk-knowledge[1], badly needed a lesson or ten in statistics[2], "cold reading" can be a surprisingly useful and powerful technique, when used appropriately.

Many "fortune tellers" often admit, when directly asked, that what they do is little more than basic psychology and counseling. Being able to "cold read" what someone is concerned about - and know the perfect "Barnum Statements"[3] to drop early on to get someone to reveal further key details - is something all psychologists tend to do, to various degrees.

Regarding the FBI and their "profilers"... isn't being able to read people very fast pretty much the very definition of the job? You don't wast time "profiling" someone if you have a mountain of obvious evidence you can use directly. You profile when there isn't sufficient evidence, and we need someone to make a guess on which of the various poor-quality leads should be investigated.

I would hope the FBI hires at least _some_ people with that kind of talent, and comparisons to psychics is likely a good thing, for once.

...

That said, this one decent idea by the FBI doesn't do much to offset all those unamerican "plea bargain" games, "asset forfeiture" thefts without a conviction, and countless other abuses of their power we've seen over the last few decades.

[1]: http://www.salon.com/2012/09/23/fingerprints_arent_proof/

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_Paradox (to name one example of many)

[3]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by Amadou on Sunday September 01, 2013 @10:10AM (#6310409)
Regarding the FBI and their "profilers"... isn't being able to read people very fast pretty much the very definition of the job?

No. FBI profilers don't even interact with suspects - they examine crime scene details and then make up a profile of the perpetrator that other agents and police then try to use as a lead.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by pdkl95 on Monday September 02, 2013 @12:44AM (#6313489)
"Reading people" doesn't require interaction. They, as you say, apply cold-reading style techniques (and other techniques, of course) to the selection of evidence and testimony available in the case.

In the end, though, they are similar to the "psychics" and confidence men; they need to quickly discover some key insights into a person's personality from (often VERY) limited data.

Also note: the very best cold-reading grifters/con-men don't have to interact with the suspect ("mark") either, sy least initially. It's part of how the mark is selected in the first place.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by Amadou on Monday September 02, 2013 @02:21AM (#6313703)
I think you would be well served by actually reading the New Yorker article that I linked to instead of making up your own scenarios that are completely unrelated.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by ihsw on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:30AM (#6309153)
> but are used as a tool to bring pressure to bear on criminals to cause them to implicate themselves indirectly or confess completely to their crimes.

It should be noted especially loudly that the plea bargain is one of the most widely used (and most successful) technique of coercing an alleged criminal to implicate themselves, and that over 95% of federal court cases end as a result of a plea bargain.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by bittermang on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:09AM (#6309224)
It's also worth noting that a subject taking the plea bargain does not necessarily mean they got the right person who committed the crime. There are many documented cases where an innocent person was coerced in to taking a plea bargain to avoid a costly trial, because they were afraid of being found guilty regardless, and opt for the "lesser" sentence -- again for a crime they did not commit.

The gamification of justice, where the only score that matters is convictions.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by samstave on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:02AM (#6309104)
>...a facade of authority built up by the common perception of their methods...

And a hell of a lot of force, backed by weapons and corrupt officials willing to "make an example" out of anyone who stands against their false authority.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by ihsw on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:31AM (#6309157)
Don't forget the plea bargain, where they threaten you with the death penalty and life in prison unless you confess.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by samstave on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:46AM (#6309191)
Fun fact: NEVER defend yourself in court.

Iwas in divorce court with my ex. I was required to pay her attorney fees, as such - I could not afford my own attorney.

As I was talking to the judge, her attorney was balking, sniffling and laughing at the things I was saying.

I stopped, turned to her and said "Excuse me, you're not being very professional"

She physically recoiled, and said "what!"

The judge said "I am sorry, what did he say"

The attorney said "I don't know - he mumbled and threatened me under his breath!"

THe bailiff began to scream at me and get in my face threatening to take me to jail.

I turned back to the judge and said "No I did not! I told her she was being unprofessional for making snide comments and sounds while I was discussing my case with you. There is audio recording of everything in this room. Replay the recording."

The judge dismissed the whole event, as she knew it were shenanigans on the part of the lawyer.

The bailiff continued to glare at me.

I gave the law firm a poor review on Yelp, Sagaria Law in San Jose, ca. Yelp kept removing it as Sagaria law kept contacting them about the reviews.

I will never respect or trust a lawyer again. This is endemic in our society.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by s_q_b on Sunday September 01, 2013 @06:06AM (#6309734)
That sounds like a terrible attorney. There are lots of ambulance chasing shills that should be disbarred, but there are also many excellent highly ethical attorneys.

The problem is that those attorneys are typically reserved for the rich, so most people don't interact with them, with the exception of some truly excellent public defenders and prosecutors.

With regard to your experience, I can't imagine an attorney not respecting the decorum of a court room like that. If I were the judge, I would have issued a warning and held her in contempt if it continued.

Further, if I found out that an attorney made a false allegation of a threat in my court room, I would report them for an ethics violation for lack of candor to the tribunal instantly. There is no room for that type of nonsense in a court of law.

I'm sorry about your experience. That attorney, who does not deserve the title, is both a poor lawyer and a terrible excuse for a human being.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by DannyBee on Sunday September 01, 2013 @09:36PM (#6313017)
"The problem is that those attorneys are typically reserved for the rich, so most people don't interact with them, with the exception of some truly excellent public defenders and prosecutors."

In general, they are not reserved for anyone.

They just get tired of clients that won't pay, usually, after they told the client "it will cost 30k to do what you want, and you will lose anyway"

So they ask for larger and larger retainers, etc.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by DannyBee on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:52AM (#6309204)
"I will never respect or trust a lawyer again. This is endemic in our society." You should totally make blanket statements based on a single experience.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by samstave on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:11AM (#6309229)
Not a single experience. The most egregious. I do not have a singular happy experience with any lawyer where I felt, you know, actually represented.

If you have had the fortune of having a lawyer do you well, good for you. I have never once experienced this. I have many examples to draw from.

EDIT: well well well, you're actually a lawyer. No wonder your bias.

Many examples:

* Didn't read my filings prior to court

* Forgot our conversations, and misrepresented my statements

* charged thousands, never showed up in court

* threatening me

* accusing me of threatening them (example cited)

* charging many thousands of dollars for retainer, while never doing any hours of work aside from a 30-minute phone call

* charging me telling me they could achieve a certain outcome, then telling me that there was nothing they could do and it was out of their control.

Yeah - fuck that.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by westicle on Sunday September 01, 2013 @02:27AM (#6309341)
Genuine question - have you considered that the problem might be you?

Sure, there are bad lawyers like there are bad examples of anything else you care to name. It sucks that you've had a bad time of it, divorce court can't be fun.

But the fact that every interaction you've had seems negative - with your own lawyers, opposing lawyers, judges and even bailiffs (who are essentially non-legal admin/security staff) reveals a pattern. Eventually you have to ask: Is the whole world crazy, or just me?

Disclosure: I am a lawyer. I've had very difficult clients in the past. I generally get along well with clients, opposing counsel and even the opposing clients (to the extent we interact).

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by nitrogen on Sunday September 01, 2013 @02:34PM (#6311487)
Sometimes people are just serially unlucky. The population of the US alone is large enough that 1-in-a-million coincidences could be happening over 300 times a day.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by pyre on Sunday September 01, 2013 @05:29AM (#6309654)
At least in the case where the opposing counsel was being rude, I could see that as someone that would respect another lawyer, but feels that they are superior (and therefore above) a person that is representing themselves.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by 6d0debc071 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @10:40AM (#6310540)
Finding a good lawyer is difficult. I find the best thing to do to be to ask my friends about their lawyers ^_^
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by Amadou on Sunday September 01, 2013 @11:02AM (#6310616)
A bad lawyer is rarely bad in every single case. Going with the recommendations of friends is basically going with anecdotal evidence.

Most bar associations operate a referral service that weeds out lawyers with bad histories. You pay the bar ~$100 and they give you the contact info for the next lawyer in the queue who practices in the field you need.

At least this way you can be sure of getting a lawyer who does not have a history of screwing over any clients badly enough to get a complaint filed rather than a lawyer who did not screw over the one client who happens to be your friend.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by 6d0debc071 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @05:09PM (#6312158)
I don't know why, but I've always had more luck asking people about lawyers than I have getting lists off of legal organisations. Perhaps because the interactions people have with lawyers are more refined than just whether they messed up the case completely or not?

That is good advice though ^_^

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by ghshephard on Sunday September 01, 2013 @02:22AM (#6309331)
Are you trying to suggest that if I had a bad dating experience that I shouldn't write off an entire gender? Or that if I had a bad boss that I shouldn't tar all of management as useless? Or if I had a bad taxi-driver (or two or three) that I shouldn't suggests that "I will never respect or trust a taxi-driver again?"

On what basis are you suggesting that one or two anecdotes don't allow me to completely profile an entire population of millions (in the case of gender Billions) of people?

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by mikeash on Sunday September 01, 2013 @10:19AM (#6310449)
Generalizing an entire population based on a single experience just doesn't work. I did it once and I turned out to be completely wrong.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by Zuider on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:48PM (#6311294)
Sometimes, a single observation is enough to make generalizations. It depends on the context. For instance, dipping your toe into water before immersing yourself will give you an accurate enough idea of the temperature of the main body of water.

In this case, the wife's lawyer appeared to believe that she was in a cultural milieu where it was acceptable practice, not only to jeer and snort on the sidelines, but to lie to the judge about what the OP said.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by rlx0x on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:29AM (#6309253)
Funny I was actually thinking the opposite, why in the world did you ever respect or trust a lawyer!?
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by DannyBee on Sunday September 01, 2013 @09:33PM (#6313009)
The same reason you'd respect or trust anyone else?
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by thecodeore on Sunday September 01, 2013 @09:24PM (#6312988)
Why did you file a Yelp Review and not a complaint with the Bar Association?

Further if the judge was ignoring you then file a complaint with chief judge.

Chances are nothing will come from a single complaint, but if a pattern emerges sanctions or even disbarment can be the result. I guarantee it will be more effective than a Yelp Review

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by sillysaurus2 on Sunday September 01, 2013 @12:24AM (#6309147)
...and even more "scientific" methods like finger-prints or DNA evidence. These methods of investigation are often portrayed in popular media as 100% effective in providing proof, however their real rates of effectiveness are quite a bit lower.

Is there hard data on the failure rate of fingerprint evidence? That's quite interesting.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by wavefunction on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:10AM (#6309226)
Well, that's the thing, I don't think (to my knowledge, basically) that they even track such things. Finger-print analysis isn't even standardized, apparently.

Brandon Mayfield is one example of a high-level failure in such analysis. He was implicated in the Madrid bombings by a finger-print and thus faced serious international terrorism charges despite being completely innocent.

Here's an article that touches on some of the issues, and also mentions some of Brandon Mayfield's experience:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3445_162-4069140.html

A finger-print analyst in the linked article claims 98% efficacy, though there is no data to back up that number. With no standards and no apparent statistics to back up their successes and failures.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by woodson on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:11AM (#6309228)
Please understand that there are much more relevant factors to the use of fingerprint to fingermark comparison evidence in court than their ability to discriminate under ideal laboratory conditions.

For some information see:

National Institute of Standards and Technology, National Institute of Justice, February 2012 report: "Latent Print Examination and Human Factors: Improving the Practice through a Systems Approach" (http://nij.gov/pubs-sum/latent-print-human-factors.htm)

In general there is a move towards probabilistic assessment of the strength of evidence (likelihood ratios), which offers a logically correct way of approaching problems in the forensic evaluation of evidence.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by monkeyspaw on Sunday September 01, 2013 @01:11PM (#6311153)
According to popular mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/432...):

'No studies have proved definitively that fingerprints are unique. Likewise, it is unclear if prints change over time or vary depending on the amount of pressure applied. Statistical models and pattern-recognition software could go a long way toward answering these questions. Additionally, research is needed to expose error rates. The ACE-V method depends on two or more examiners reaching the same subjective conclusion, but doesn't require them to reach it the same way. In one recent experiment, veteran examiners looking twice at the same print came to different conclusions each time. "

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by frank_boyd on Sunday September 01, 2013 @03:39AM (#6309439)
> [...] the fiction of the efficacy of polygraphs

"Do they work?" is one question.

But if you apply for a job at any of the intelligence agencies (NSA, CIA, etc.), you'll have to pass this test. So be prepared.

Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by drcube on Sunday September 01, 2013 @10:06AM (#6310394)
Why do supposedly professional, competent organizations choose to use worthless voo-doo such as polygraphs for any reason whatsoever, let alone important functions such as hiring? Sounds to me like anybody helping illustrate their ineffectiveness is doing the world a favor.
Re:Man accused of teaching people to beat lie detector tests... by moron4hire on Sunday September 01, 2013 @03:28PM (#6311729)
Flawed, ostensibly objective tests for subjective, volatile, potentially unkowable information (ie polygraphs, job interviews, school aptitude tests, IQ tests, etc) adre all about passing the buck to the next guy. If it ever turns out that someone is an enemy spy, then the person who hired him can't be blamed, because he "passed the polygraph". It's about plausible deniabiltlity and CYA.