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Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by steveplace on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:09AM (#6026475)
Basic income on top of everything else doesn't make much sense (cost-wise).

But if we could trade B.I. for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and other social progams-- it would probably be more cost efficient as individuals look after their money better than other people do.

Here's a video from Milton Friedman (not Tom Friedman!) who is advocating for a negative income tax-- a variation of basic income.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by steveklabnik on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:18AM (#6026544)
The article directly addresses this point:

> The welfare bureaucracy is largely dismantled. No means testing, no signing on, no bullying young people into stacking shelves for free, no separate state pension.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by king_jester on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:20AM (#6026567)
Medicare and medicaid wouldn't really apply so much to this as there are systemic problems that make spending money on healthcare not such a good idea. Rather, with a BI we should also include a universal health care option to avoid the issues with consumer healthcare spending and marketing.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by ticviking on Thursday July 11, 2013 @01:59PM (#6027789)
Let consumers face those issues and watch as the market responds to consumers who are paying cash.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by Jd on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:13PM (#6027913)
The problem is that when consumer make bad decisions (i.e. don't go to the doctor and develop serious health problems), the government in the end still has to foot the bill. You can't turn people away from emergency rooms and have them die on the street.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by tomjen3 on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:26PM (#6028064)
I often find that when somebody claims "you can't do x" that we learn a lot by asking, why exactly is that.

In your case I am wondering why exactly is that we can't turn people away - in aggregate it is likely to save more lives since seeing people dying would be an excellent motivating factor for others to make sure they pay their health care insurance -- and since they would therefore have it and would be able to get treatment earlier, which is cheaper, thereby causing the price of health care to be pushed down (treating people in ERs is frighteningly inefficient).

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by Jd on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:33PM (#6028120)
Frankly, reports from doctor-friends who work in ERs indicates that a large part of costs are treating people who are dealing with preventable often drug-related problems that create emergencies because the people involved are basically incapable of prevention. Seeing other people on the street homeless is apparently not enough incentive to keep people from becoming homeless themselves. I have no idea why seeing other people dying from internal bleeding because they didn't have the foresight to buy medical insurance to get the appropriate medication to treat their issue would curb behavioral patterns which seem to be flawed at a very fundamental level.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by ihateloggingin on Saturday July 13, 2013 @05:40AM (#6037142)
You can't incentivize a turnip to bleed.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by antitrust on Thursday July 11, 2013 @05:04PM (#6029220)
Natural selection?
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by king_jester on Thursday July 11, 2013 @04:01PM (#6028769)
> In your case I am wondering why exactly is that we can't turn people away - in aggregate it is likely to save more lives since seeing people dying would be an excellent motivating factor for others to make sure they pay their health care insurance

How exactly does this help people in emergency situations? Or those who go undiagnosed with a condition despite having a primary care physician? What about those folks with a disability that makes it difficult for them to access health care? What about people who are discouraged from getting health care because of discrimination? What about people who live in rural areas far from some kinds of medical treatment?

Bottom line is that death is not a motivator for people in the way you think it is. Even if it was, what kind of society threatens its members with death for failing to participate in your model vision of capitalism?

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by mikeash on Thursday July 11, 2013 @04:06PM (#6028819)
Aside from all the obvious issues with poor people or people who just don't like the idea of insurance, I want to know how turning people away works with employed, well-paid, insured people like me who might just be coming in without ID after some sort of accident or medical emergency.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by stephensikes on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:24PM (#6028041)
Indeed, but the point is that with BI, they would be on the hook for those excess costs. Preventative medicine is cheaper and when the excess cost of an ER visit comes directly out of patients' pockets, they will be more diligent about prevention.

Good analogy is car maintenance. Most people are very diligent about oil changes because they (inherently, I would argue) recognize the cost structure.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by ceol on Thursday July 11, 2013 @03:19PM (#6028477)
A lot of people aren't very diligent. It just so happens the old mantra of "every 3,000 miles" doesn't apply to newer cars, so when people forget and do it at 6,000 or 8,000, there aren't any negative effects.

And I would say people don't change their oil because they know their engine will die if they go too long. They do it because it's been ingrained in their head as required maintenance, and that sort of thing is normally taken care of nowadays in a much larger package that includes filters and belts (because people vaguely remember about oil, but they're clueless about the other things.)

I'm not the one you were responding to, but my point here is that people aren't going to ensure prevention without a ton of conditioning or some greater authority forcing them to do so. The voter turnout for Australia, where people are forced by law to vote, was 93% in 2010.[0] In the USA? 41%.[1] People can't be asked to run over to their local elementary school for 20 minutes and pick the first name that pops into their head once every four years, so I doubt any sort of repercussion not mandated by law will have an effect.

[0]: http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?id=15

[1]: http://www.idea.int/vt/countryview.cfm?id=231

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by toomuchtodo on Thursday July 11, 2013 @03:36PM (#6028598)
I love how every other first world country has universal healthcare, but the US still would rather try this first.

"You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." - Winston Churchill

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by twoodfin on Thursday July 11, 2013 @01:20PM (#6027468)
I agree, but unfortunately I don't think "basic income and no other welfare programs" is a politically stable policy. No sooner will it have been introduced than politicians will be tempted to screw with it to help a favored constituency.

Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI.

Live in an area damaged by a hurricane? We'll bump your BI for a year or two.

I don't think a "simpler" tax code would last much longer for the same reason.

The only way I think it could actually work is if we turned over the whole thing to a bunch of unelected technocrats like the Fed (which might not be a terrible idea since it gives them another lever on economic policy...)

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by Vivtek on Thursday July 11, 2013 @01:33PM (#6027576)
Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI.

So ... politicians would suddenly start to pay people to teach in the inner city? Those scoundrels! I can see why you're opposed to this concept.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by aidenn0 on Thursday July 11, 2013 @01:55PM (#6027756)
One of the proposed advantages of BI is its simplicity (which among other things means few loopholes and lower enforcement overhead). The point the poster you quote is making is that no tax code will remain simple for very long.

In fact you support that point. Many of the complexities we have now come from adding "just one more feature" to the tax code, until we end up with something so complex that there is an entire industry built up around paying taxes.

If he said "In exchange for supporting inner-city teachers, we will be indirectly subsidizing H&R Block to the tune of $2B" you might ponder whether or not it's worth it.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by zanny on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:19PM (#6027975)
Why not? If you get BI out of any political process, you already had a majority in support of the simplification. It just requires vigilance, which our current track record for is terrible, but any economic system or any political process requires vigilance, and a BI isn't any different.

It is true that over the entire history of the United States, the American public has proven itself apathetic to the abuses of their politicians, but that is a cultural problem that needs to be solved regardless of having a basic income or not.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by sukuriant on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:36PM (#6028143)
They already do. Working in an inner-city can substantially reduce your college loans as a teacher, especially if you were getting something higher, like an ED.D. (doctorate in education)
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by Vivtek on Thursday July 11, 2013 @04:50PM (#6029143)
Substantially getting closer to zero assets is not really what I call society valuing education - but that is not your point. My point, though, was this: it turns out it's possible to provide incentives to people without manipulating a BI scheme - you just actually pay people money, like, you know, income from work they're performing. So there is no reason to assume that introduction of a basic income should be opposed because it would introduce unmanageable complexity as well, especially given that it would most certainly eliminate far more complexity.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by joelmichael on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:46PM (#6028239)
It's true. While the basic income is a superior system to welfare in theory, political reality assures it wouldn't be handled in the way Friedman would prefer. It would just lay the foundation for all sorts of political redistribution, which would be very destabilizing.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by stephensikes on Thursday July 11, 2013 @02:26PM (#6028062)
It's a much more efficient and transparent tool to incentivize behavior than the current tax code.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by adestefan on Thursday July 11, 2013 @01:48PM (#6027699)
There already is a negative income tax. It's called the Earned Income Tax Credit. The only catch on the EITC is that it's based on both income and the number of qualifying children.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by effn on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:19AM (#6026553)
You can't use Social Security funds to fund a Basic Income. It operates similarly to a pension fund so it would be equivalent to confiscate peoples lifetime savings. Good luck explaining that to someone who is just about to retire.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by dragonwriter on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:57AM (#6026854)
> You can't use Social Security funds to fund a Basic Income.

Yes, you can.

> It operates similarly to a pension fund

It presents itself as one, but it really operates as a general-tax-supported social-benefit program with a variety of eligibility criteria.

> so it would be equivalent to confiscate peoples lifetime savings.

Sure, some people would politically attack it that way, particularly if the general BI reduced the SS benefits to which people already qualified would receive. Its less subject to this political attack, however, if SS is merged into BI in such a way that no one currently paid into SS ends up with less BI at any point than they would have received from SS.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by derefr on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:22AM (#6026577)
You can, however, say that going forward, people will pay into basic income instead of social security; and that no one born after [policy-change date] will receive social security in the future (since they never paid into it.)
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by effn on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:27AM (#6026628)
Possible in theory. But then you have to explain to people why they are paying the same amount of tax as people one year older than them, but will still receive a lot less when they retire.
Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by danielweber on Thursday July 11, 2013 @12:05PM (#6026919)
That's coming anyway.

For the record, you have zero ownership rights in your SS benefits. They can be changed at will.

Re:Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic... by dllthomas on Thursday July 11, 2013 @11:30AM (#6026660)
It needn't be a sharp cutoff.