Something like this is not unreasonable. After all we are already putting warning labels on things that are a threat to safety and health. What is happening is a threat to personal freedom and political sovereignty.

This call by the German minister is exactly the type of thing that should galvanize the US Internet giants to put the full weight of their lobby (http://internetassociation.org/) behind policy reform (if they haven't already).

As Lessig has been eloquently pointing out for years (http://www.ted.com/talks/lawrence_lessig_we_the_people_and_t...), the elected serve two masters -- the Funders (SuperPACs/Lobbyists) and the People.

You need the votes of the People to get elected, but once you're in office the Lobbyists' influence overshadows the People's and members are encouraged to "lean to the green."

The NRA lobby flexed its muscle and secured the 2nd for the time being. It's time for the Internet lobby to flex its muscle to secure the 4th.

The People have a role too -- when the People are aligned behind a great lobbying power, the force of weight is too powerful to ignore.

A SOPA-like blackout and petition would send a strong signal.

How about Italy? Large domestic spying program, manipulation of the press, forged documents that helped convince the US to invade Iraq, spying on other EU countries.

Answering fascism with a greater fascism is never a viable solution. As much as Europeans want (and justifiably so) to hate the US government for their actions, irrespective of the complicity of their own governments and, by extension, own citizens, it would be more productive and more reflective of reality to realize that many Americans actually agree with them.

Interestingly, I'm also a [naturalised] american living in the UK. I wrote to my MP the last time there was public debate about electronic surveillance and I voted against the last government because they were so consistently in favour of more spying with less oversight. But feel free to hate me too. Perhaps I'm the wrong kind of jewish, american, resident of Britain.

I guess I could pull the cop out 'but I have some Jewish friends!' but I won't, you'll just have to believe that me that I hate Zionism rather than Judaism.

Does the Israeli government do things that I, as a zionist, despise? Absolutely. Does this mean that the State of Israel is illegitimate? No.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_an_Anti-Zionist_Frien... Even if one comment, taken out of context, resulted in a much more general Twain-like attribution.

It's tough enough explaining the current and historical pressures that it becomes a minefield of terminology. Zionist/anti-zionist/anti-semitic/etc. are all loaded terms that now encourage emotion over logic.

I'm not on your case, I'm feeling your pain in terms of having to use two posts and 50 words where one or two should suffice to keep people from going ballistic.

I don't want to open that particular can of worms up inside this current can of worms, though. I was just using it as an example of how irrational "expelling all Americans from Europe" seemed to me.

"Consider this... how would you feel if he'd said the actions of the Israeli government in regards to their treatment of Palestinians were unconscionable and so all citizens of Israel should be barred from Europe?"

(Keep in mind that you cannot enter the UAE and some other Arab countries on an Israeli passport.)

Let's skip the forcible removal for the moment and just keep it on tourist/business travel at the border or at flight check-in.

you think you can spy on us, torture people, kill innocents, trample over longstanding diplomatic conventions to ground a president of a country, put the full might of your police state to hunt down your own freedom fighters, and then come here and have a good time or do business?

See, i've never spied on anyone, tortured anyone, or killed anyone and I couldn't care less about Europe's secrets. Yet as far as HSO seems to be concerned, I'm best kept off the streets of innocent and civilized Europe because of my bloodthirsty and fascist nature. How would this be anything other than a bigoted policy? Particularly since other "Europeans" would apparently get a free pass in regards to anything their own governments happen to have done?

Let me quote myself from above, perhaps it becomes clearer in isolation: "The point is: The US electorate and businesses are either pro surveilling the whole world, even their own allies, or they are lethargic and indifferent. If the former, we should draw the consequence and stop having contact and exchanges with them. If the latter, we should increase the cost of doing nothing."

(My guess, by the way, is on "lethargic and indifferent".)

> If this were in effect and I got on a plane to go some EU nation, what have I done that makes me a direct threat to that country's population? Is it assumed that I'm going to go around stealing people's mail and shooting people in the streets? How am I, personally, a greater threat to a European citizen's freedom than their own government, or even the government next door?

Now this just illustrates beautifully my point! Exactly this is the question I am asking myself: Why are you (i.e. your government) treating me as an enemy? Reading my emails? Listening to my phone calls? Who knows what else? And LOGGING IT for the future?! what have I done that makes me a direct threat to the US population? [...] See, i've never spied on anyone, tortured anyone, or killed anyone and I couldn't care less about US secrets.

Indifferent, probably. So I'd suggest this... focus on the companies and not the people. Because the American government doesn't listen to the voters, but it most certainly will listen to a multinational corporation willing to pull a billion dollars out of a Congressman's district because they no longer trust or are able to do business with the United States. Europeans should get out and protest around wherever the Google offices are in their country. Raise (a reasonable and non-lethal amount of) hell whenever the American president or some dignitary shows up. European governments can annoy us with regulations. There are a hundred different things that Europeans and their governments could be doing but aren't, that would get the point across.

You voted for a government that spied, tortured and killed people for you. Note that it doesn’t matter whether you voted for the current president or not, neither does it matter whether you’re even registered as a voter. What does matter is that you are allowed to vote (as a US citizen, I presume) and hence bear full responsibility for the actions of your government[0]. Which routinely spies on and at least tortures Europeans.

> Particularly since other "Europeans" would apparently get a free pass in regards to anything their own governments happen to have done?

I do feel solidarity towards other members of the EU, being the naive pan-European that I feel like being, and do not mind accepting some flaws in return for them accepting mine. The difference is that there is some common government/council and even a common and generally accepted court of law which can resolve differences, whereas there is no such thing for ‘divergencies’ with neither the USG, nor the people of the US.

[0] The argument goes roughly like this: If we assume you to only bear responsibility if you are part of this government, someone can elect a fascist leader and avoid any responsibility. If we assume you to only be responsible if you voted for the current government, we violate the secrecy of the vote. If we assume you to only be responsible if you voted at all (something that is often publicly known), then we offer you yet another get-out-of-jail-free card, furthermore, you could have voted against the current incumbent and hence possibly change the outcome of the election. Hence established that everyone allowed to vote is responsible for the actions of the government, we can then conclude that you bear full responsibility for said actions (at the very least towards third-country citizens, I don’t care how you manage that internally) by the simple fact that people don’t get discounts if they commit crimes with their friends.

No, I voted for a government that would bring equity to the financial system and nationalize health insurance, create a jobs program, pull us out of Iraq and Afghanistan and close Guantanamo. I got a government that spies, tortures and kills for me, whether I liked it or not.

The US government is not divorced from the population. It is composed of millions of Americans (and others) who are working to support its various services and programs. Much of the behavior seen recently (especially the NSA/Snowden action) is very understandable if you view it through the lens of someone trying to save their job. The government's actions are the result of these millions of people moving in various directions, mildly shifted with each administration.

It's not feasible to think that an outside agent can directly change the way the US government acts. However, as has been demonstrated in the worst way, asymmetrical warfare will change the way the citizens think. Mass boycotts and sanctions would have an effect just as terrorist attacks have.

If the citizens of the US lose jobs, income, heck, blockbuster movies because the international market dries up, they will change the way they act.

You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation.

As a US citizen, I'm embarrassed by my government. We had a brief period of time in Obama's first administration when I didn't feel like an apologist or an impotent victim of the tyranny of democracy.

A citizen's duty is to work to establish leadership that reflects his or her values. We use a lot of excuses (the USA is too big, one vote doesn't count, we're a representative republic, etc.) but at the end of the day, if someone is Proud to be an American™, then they must take responsibility for its excesses as well.

You can't guess how, unfortunately. The largest response will be anger at the rest of the world, which could lead to a Weimar Republic situation.

I think that's a real danger. From my perspective, most everything in the US is kinda right of center, but the last thing I would want to contribute anything to is to empower the hard right elements in it.

Collective punishment just doesn't sit right with me.. I think it tends to hit the wrong people and leave the intended targets mostly unaffected. I mean, US citizens who travel, to see the world and learn about it, and meet people and learn about them, are exactly the ones that should be welcomed and encouraged, no? And if the US economy takes a hit across the board of the high-tech sector, it would also mostly hurt the "small fish", I'm sure. Whatever would make Facebook or Google loose even 1% would also completely shutter a lot of mom and pop shops. (not that people working at Facebook and Google wouldn't also loose jobs, and it would NOT be the people responsible for anything Google or Facebook got punished for)

Not that I don't find your attidude impressive, or that you don't have a point. If more would feel so directly responsible for what is done in their name, we wouldn't be here talking about this. So ignore what I say when it comes to your attitude, I just want to explain why I won't be part of putting all Americans into one bag and hitting it.

If the rest of the world starts to punish anything American, starts judging people and companies by region code instead of by what they're doing or saying, then it's just "they hate us for being American" for a lot of people, and downhill from there. We've been there quite recently.. as someone who did a lot of stupid battle with Bush followers, that stuff is burned into my retina forever.

Generally speaking, you guys have people in your country you could use help with, or at least moral support for, instead of being shunned for them. This can be said about any country, but also about the US. So have a nice 4th of July, and enjoy it.

There is this line from "The Wire" that the character played by Steve Earle says to the heroin junkie: "Sorry Bubs... shame ain't worth as much as you think. Let it go." And he's talking about personal shame, not even on behalf of others. If you're embarrassed, use that, and shout from the rooftops; but don't let it actually get inside you. The ones who should be embarrassed aren't, yet the ones who should keep their chins up are feeling down? Nah!

The Peace Prize was ludicrous, since the only thing he remotely did to deserve it was not to be named George Bush. I would dearly love for it to be recalled.

In terms of fascism, by the way, there was a list of diagnostic points for fascism that circulated a few years ago - the US meets them all, albeit in embryonic form. We're definitely in a stage of protofascism, if you will.

I love seeing this call to avoid US services. Americans don't really start noticing anything until business is threatened or the cable TV goes out; if this call to arms actually has any measurable effect it will be a very positive move indeed.

Think: Meetup.com, something might be planned online but it takes place in the physical world. Basically, it'd mean replicating things like this where there's an increase in human-to-human contact. I'm just throwing out an idea, but there's got to be ways to combat the spying or at least make it all based only on metadata rather than the actual data. I don't believe the spying only covers metadata anyways.

There is no internal spying or injustice, racism, or political or economic corruption in any of these states, and their economic policies only foster creativity and happiness. Governments in the EU are free of corporate influence, and vice versa. The world would truly be able to step into the 21st Century if only we acknowledged that it's the US that is holding it back.

Are you going to kick out Austria, too? They seemed awfully lickspittle today. I don't think it's the Brits that are your problem.

Brit here (well half German so you will get the irony of this comment).

You're confusing the British people with the government. We the people are not represented by our government, media or press.

Thank you. Guten tag.

I think it depends a lot on the age and the amount of consumption of Murdoch media per day.

I've actually been told I was "gay" (immature eh?) for not reading a Murdoch rag before so your point hits home pretty hard.

Perhaps I should just move out of the country :)

And we are pro surveilling the whole world. And there's nothing you can do about it, frankly.

Isolationist policy won't work, period.

It's not about the _People_ of USA or Europe. So let's not become hostile against each other. (It's almost _never_ about the _people_ between nations. It's _governments_ that fuck up things for the people.)

It's about a rotten system, which unfortunately is the US government today. (It's not even about Obama, this is way above people like him.)

It is about the people. We call this a "democracy" (I know, it's a republic), yet as a whole we fail to engage our government meaningfully. That makes it the peoples' fault.

We tolerate this crap in the US because as a whole we suffer no visible consequence from it. Most US citizens remain blissfully unaware. Many of those who are aware don't care because it doesn't affect them in any way they can measure, and/or because they think it makes them safer. If we as a whole suffer in some measurable way, especially of those of us who are wealthy enough to travel are rudely made aware of our own rudeness and inconsideration for others, maybe then more of us will actively oppose this crap.

I wouldn't see the revocation of visa-less travel for US citizens in Europe as hostility, or as an unreasonable response to US gov't aggression in the form of our unilaterally spying on everyone.

The German Democratic Republic called itself a democracy. Its president Walter Ulbricht at one occasion even said "It must look like democracy, but we must keep control in our hands".

We also merely call outselves a democracy, but in prectice we arent one. The game, the rules of which we didnt write, cant change and still have to abide by, is engineered to, like the GDR, merely give the people a semblance of democracy to keep em busy and calm. We wouldnt go voting for nothing, so it has to be a democracy, otherwise we wouldnt do it, right? Right. In practice, it is not a democracy, but a prisoners dilemma on a country level. In pure theory, we could win the game but only if we achieved levels of organisation and cooperation which in practice are near impossible to achieve. And in this game, we woud actualy play _against_ our politicians, not with them.

When Austria elected a neofascist Prime Minister (Jörg Haider), do you think it would have been justified to expel Austria from Schengen and the U.S. visa-waiver program? Do you think doing so would have been seen as a hostile move? After all, Austria is a democracy, so why not sanction the Austrian people for their decisions?

No.

Next straw man ..

What I meant to say is this:

It's not that Americans hate Europeans or vice versa or that Muslims hate Americans or Muslims hate Europeans. We are human beings that share the pains of this existance. We _all_ want to live together in peace - all of us.

Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

And I believe this is the case with HN readers (the majority of the general public in the US is probably not part of this priviledged group). So go out and inform your peers about what they can do to advance democracy on this planet.

I was born in the US. I've lived in North America, Europe, and Asia. I agree absolutely.

>Now, when you are part of those that _know_ more (better and fully transparent media available, skill of critical thinking acquired in school), it means that you, as an individual, have more _responsibility_ to change things for the better.

IMO, my generation has grown up with and grown accustomed to a kind of powerlessness with respect to gov't policy. Demographics heavily favor the Baby Boomer generation in most parts of the country. The psychology of living for twenty years in a "democracy" where gov't policy has to be approved by our parents, or else it will fail, seems to have produced a lot of apathetic people in my cohort. That's my excuse anyway. Nevertheless, without some meaningful feedback concerning our gov't's, or some galvanizing event, I don't see much chance for progress on this front.

Americans want to live in peace, but we want to be in charge, and we don't like the idea of other countries telling us we can't do things. Even cooperating with other countries is perceived as a sign of weakness, and capitulating to other countries telling us that we can't do something we were planning on doing would be political suicide. If you want to get the U.S. electorate solidly behind a policy they were otherwise indifferent about, tell them France is opposed to us doing it...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/06/nsa-spying-p...

I don't know how much of that is attributed to years of fearmongering, but america is a democratic country.

Yes and no. Democracy only works when there is real transparency. And that's the problem with US media:

They're in the pockets of Big Money.

Result: Brainwashing wins over Democracy.

I welcome this myself because I have a hard time raising interest in doing anything even amongst my friends. I can't even get people to follow a few easy steps to secure their email, much less march on the NSA.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

"all men" is not ambiguous. It didn't say all Americans.

Look at the last U.S. president that tried to present a softer face to the world: Jimmie Carter. Most people hate Carter here in the U.S., on both sides of the aisle.

So, I concur with the OP: it is time for the American people to start feeling the pressure from those of us in the world who expect better from them. Before its too late.