Too some extent, this NSA story should be of equal or greater disturbance to non-Americans.
Using Facebook's private messaging, with or without NSA spying, is very stupid because we know Facebook stores all of this forever, including after you "delete" your account. That could make it accessible even in a non-criminal civil dispute.
This makes no sense whatsoever.
Even if PRISM allowed at-will searches across the FB accounts of would-be au-pairs, there is frankly no way the NSA would be sharing this with low level customs officials. At most there would be a simple flag on her record, at which point she would be shipped back without explanation.
Frankly, the fact that a significant number of commenters in this thread are taking this non-story at face value is bewildering. BS alarms should be going off left right and center, here.
Now you're questioning whether Homeland Security, an agency originally created to pool information from all intelligence agencies to screen for terrorists, has access to the same information?
It makes sense to read private communications to find out if she's a threat to the homeland. What doesn't make sense is your disbelief in the face of clear evidence that this kind of thing has been going on for years - just with a different agency name.
OK maybe I missed something, but do you have a citation for this?
No, I don't know this. Do you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%2...
"They [NSA] could get most of it, but they couldn't get it all. So in order to get all the data, they had to go to the service providers to fill in the blanks. That's what the PRISM program is for—to fill in the blanks. It also gives the FBI basis for introducing evidence into court."
"PRISM was first publicly revealed on June 6, 2013 [...] The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including (date of joining PRISM in parentheses) Microsoft (2007), Yahoo! (2008), Google (2009), Facebook (2009), Paltalk (2009), YouTube (2010), AOL (2011), Skype (2011), and Apple (2012)."
This statement is not supported by anything in the wikipedia article you cited. You're spinning conjecture.
Facebook provides data:
"Facebook: "We do not provide any government organization with direct access to Facebook servers. When Facebook is asked for data or information about specific individuals, we carefully scrutinize any such request for compliance with all applicable laws, and provide information only to the extent required by law."[23]"
Facebook has met with a US General on how to make data collection and reporting more efficient:
"The other companies held discussions with national security personnel on how to make available data more efficiently and securely.[29] In some cases, these companies made modifications to their systems in support of the intelligence collection effort.[29] The dialogues have continued in recent months, as General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, has met with executives including those at Facebook"
Facebook custom built a system for delivering data to the government:
"the companies were effectively asked to construct a locked mailbox and provide the key to the government, people briefed on the negotiations said.[29] Facebook, for instance, built such a system for requesting and sharing the information.[29]"
The Director of National Intelligence says they have been using Facebook to collect information on foreigners for six years. I THINK THIS IS KIND OF A SMOKING GUN, BUT I COULD BE WRONG.
" Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper, on June 7 released a statement confirming that for nearly six years the government of the United States had been using large internet services companies such as Google and Facebook to collect information on foreigners outside the United States as a defense against national security threats."
In the future, please just read the page instead of trolling me to do the research for you.
Specifically, you have made and defended the claim that the NSA & FBI have total access to joe anybody's Facebook account. You then went on to cite passages from Wikipedia detailing the PRISM mailbox put in place by [FB / Google]. What you did not mention is how the mailbox is actually populated.
> The data shared in these ways, the people said, is shared after company lawyers have reviewed the FISA request according to company practice. [1]
> FISA orders can range from inquiries about specific people to a broad sweep for intelligence, like logs of certain search terms, lawyers who work with the orders said. There were 1,856 such requests last year, an increase of 6 percent from the year before. [1]
This is from the NYT article cited in the Wikipedia page, which you indirectly cited twice. These requests are routed through a FISA court and limited in number, which is a far cry from "total" access. Your claim is incorrect.
Either way, this is a pretty unproductive discussion and I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this. You're also being belligerent and rude. Have a nice day.
[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/technology/tech-companies-...
The far, far, far simpler explanation would that she had a printout of the conversations because it had an address or directions or that she voluntarily handed over a device (or, possibly, was bullied into doing so, which is in the rights of border control to do).
Pretty much, only "filled in a form on a web page" not "called up someone", "made a request to the api" not "called up someone at Facebook" and "the software ran" not "just gave it to them". Get with the times.
> Words fail me for an adjective to describe how unlikely that sounds.
You have not been paying attention.
It wouldn't surprise me now if there was a system in place that used the ESTA information to query the NSA/CIA/etc for anything that might be an issue for immigration control.
If she's been talking about working in the USA and hasn't got a visa (ESTA is only for personal visits, not business IIRC), that's enough for the TSA to refuse her entrance for lying to them.
It's for both both business and pleasure - says right there on the ESTA home page:
https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/
"You plan to travel to the United States for business or pleasure."
NB I've travelled a few times the US over the last few years on business using ESTA so you had me slightly worried there!
Someone leaks information about PRISM, and the primary response is TREASON! TREASON! ARREST THE TRAITOR AND DEAL WITH HIM!
Given that, do you really expect that A) random border agents are in on it, and B) feel free to just randomly disclose that sort of surveillance to someone who has no need to know about it?
Secondly, a lot of people knew, but kept quiet. I see no reason to expect a random border agent from talking, given it took years and someone like Snowden to finally talk.
Maybe, but even so, from giving access to the department, to allowing border officers to prove to foreign citizens that they can read their PMs goes a long way.
Using Facebook's private messaging, with or without NSA spying, is very stupid because we know Facebook stores all of this forever, including after you "delete" your account. That could make it accessible even in a non-criminal civil dispute.
She lives in Germany, which has a widely different fact gathering process, being much more restrictive and protective of the defendant's privacy.
Moreover, she's 18 and from a country which is probably much less lawsuit-happy than the US. It doesn't seem stupid to me at all that she didn't consider being sued when sending PMs to her host.
Even if that were true, she was exchanging messages with the father of the American family she was planning to stay with. I doubt they only read the messages sent by the German girl.
Do you have a link to a source on this? What other leakers are you referring to?
I mean, I don't know why Snowden bothered to leak the info, if they're just telling any 18-year-old German girl about it.
Assuming for the moment that this story did happen exactly as we're lead to believe (and I'm only making that assumption for the sake of playing devils advocate - I'm firmly on the fence with this story due to how sketchy the details are), then it would be very easy for the NSA to cover up how they had such data: "We'd been investigating her for a few weeks - here's a warrant"
Playing devils advocate here; there maybe more to this teenager than we're aware of. She might be an active protester or have left vocal remarks on other locations online that triggered closer inspection.
I'm not trying to say that your explanations are wrong or less plausible though, just that assumptions are being made on both sides of the argument.
I'm not saying that is what happened, there are other plausible explanations too. I am just saying that such a scenario is entirely plausible.
It doesn't seem likely a low level border agent would have access to this. If this is standard operating procedure, don't you think we would have heard about it from other people who were presented with printouts of their facebook messages when arriving at the border?
Or more likely, this is FUD that leaves out specific facts (border agents don't have broad access to facebook messages) to give the impression it is linked to a big trending news story.
Exactly! How would the US gov't have access to someone's private correspondences on Facebook? They'd having to be spying on FB's users for that to be the case...
Right now very unlikely.
As for personal experience with this, I had a musician friend that posted on his website that he was going to be performing a series of shows in Canada. He was asked at the border if he planned to work while in Canada. He said no and did not have a visa that allows it. The border agent showed him his website, which was found with google, showing that he was planning to work. He was denied entry and banned from Canada for 1 year for lying to a border agent.
Where do you get this understanding from?
Is it just me who feels that is a bit heartless?
If a young Mexican woman showed up at the border with papers describing how she intends to work as an illegal nanny, would we react the same way?
The first is a job, the second shouldn't be considered one.
This is to prevent abuses such as shipping in workers from a poorer country, giving them food, board and $10 a week for them to stack shelves, and claiming "It's not a job", so the not-workers don't require a working visa.
Similar judgements are also often made in relation to tax law, working conditions, etc.
Plus it's tricky when it comes to something like 'watching children part of the day'. It wouldn't be considered labor if it was a family member doing it, whereas stacking shelves certainly would be. If I'm letting someone live in my house, why should it matter if they're family when it comes to having them do chores?
Illegal immigrants pay more into social security than they take out. I don't even live in your country and I know this, come on - read a book.
Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeituni_Onyango
She ignored deportation orders and managed to receive subsidized housing and a disability pension. She's not unique.
I think that comment was uncalled. If you wanted to point out OP disinformation you could just provided the source and it would be as much effective and also would be better appreciated.
My guess is it would be difficult to find any piece of document where it states something along the lines of "The goal of this program is to make this country more appealing for illegal immigrants, by offering them extensive welfare and preferential job and tuition situations, especially over those of our citizens."
I think what's more likely is that you are citing unfortunate byproducts of an imperfect solution to a complicated problem. Not a "typical reaction."
I'm not an expert on these things, though.
I think the point is that the facts provided by the article don't seem very likely.