News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @12:56PM (#50456337)
As a person who performs a lot of music on various instruments, playing in "closed" positions where you don't know the not you're playing is a just-fine strategy.

There are reasons why folks know the names of notes in some positions better than others.

When I was playing a lot of bass for folks in low rent with bands that were playing standard music and never rehearsing, I generally only paid attention to the low string and worked my parts out (often on the fly) around the relative pitches.

If you're trying to keep up with the bass part on a song you've never heard before while performing it on stage, it's much more relevant (and far easier/faster) to know the position of the minor 3 note of the scale than it is to know what note is the minor 3.

Over the decades I play a lot more piano, and that changes. I play a lot of blues and jazz but am quite poor at reading typical rep for the instrument. While I started out mostly playing using chord fingerings (and inversions), the more I play the more specific I can get on my understanding of actual notes. Because I've been playing a lot of clarinet (which forces me to transpose a whole lot, including reading a part and transposing on the fly), the names of specific notes has gotten a whole lot more important, but also easier with practice.

On the pedal steel (which I have only been playing for a decade on and am still coming to terms with), while I can pull all that knowledge I am still usually playing based on a notes position- I know what string/lever combo is going to get the 6 note in a given scale rather than thinking "I need to play an A to get this C chord to be a C6, and that's this position on the neck with the BC pedals down or that position with the LKR lever pushed.

All that is to say, it's okay to not know the names of notes if you understand their function related to the melody.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by asdff on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:07PM (#50457180)
Guitar music in particular has very little actual pressure on learning any music notation or theory. Some of the greatest guitar soloists of all time could not read sheet music and knew zero music theory. This is common enough where there's good odds if you just name a great guitarist, they are probably in this camp.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by djtriptych on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:23PM (#50457357)
There's a great clip (probably a bunch actually) of Jimi, on stage, holding up the band, counting frets one by one to find his starting position.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by earleybird on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @06:03PM (#50460165)
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:23PM (#50457359)
This is debatable because I dont know what you mean when you say they didnt know theory. Hendrix is a great example, supposedly he didnt know, but it is very clear he would play the pentatonic of the quality of chord he was playing over. Is that knowing theory? Or playing is playing the BB King box theory? Or is knowing the major scale theory? It's almost certain that the best guitars that you're saying, some of these things. So do you mean the nomenclature?
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by vunderba on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:34PM (#50457467)
Right, you can be an incredibly articulate English speaker without necessarily knowing the terms for the different parts of speech in a sentence.

I think there's a number of people who learned to play by ear who just sort of "internalized" theory without needing a formal curriculum.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:42PM (#50457575)
Yeah, I just maybe think of theory as something else than something that can only be studied formally.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by cwmoore on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:36PM (#50457493)
Anyone can clap hands and hum, the music isn’t the theory.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:41PM (#50457565)
I agree. But the theory is a way of structuring a system of names and shorthands to help codify what you know about producing music. At what point does your system for structuring the understanding you have about how to organize pitches in a way that you like become theory? Specially if it matches one for one to established concepts in academic music theory?
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by cwmoore on Thursday November 12, 2026 @04:13AM (#50464827)
I’m not sure what you are saying.

Copy and paste “hello, world” ot install sqlite3 looks like computer science?

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:02AM (#50466517)
The argument was that the greatest guitarists didn't know theory so it doesn't equate to that. Hello world equivalent. It's more like building TempleOS or Rollercoaster Tycoon or building SQLite without getting a formal education somehow means you don't understand computer science
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by cwmoore on Thursday November 12, 2026 @12:36PM (#50471044)
My examples are exaggerated or misleading. Other comment covers it I think.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:14AM (#50468722)
On some level, yes, knowing what shape an G chord is on a guitar is knowing some theory in the exact same way that being able to get hello world functioning in a language is necessary to starting to understand the broader elements of computer science.

Just because something is the Nth lowest first step does not mean it's not a step.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by cwmoore on Thursday November 12, 2026 @12:34PM (#50471025)
The theory is true, but no theory will make you perform quite like a legendary recording artist.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:25PM (#50471824)
Yeah, it'd be nice if Berklee funk sounded good.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by criddell on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:11AM (#50467424)
[delayed]
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by asdff on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:46PM (#50457637)
They have taste for sure and an ear for a blues lick, but they don't know formal theory. It's like how my cat understands gravity but has no awareness of formal gravitational theory or the maths involved.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:50PM (#50457709)
The cat is a bad analogy. A better one for me would be like a mathematician that does a contribution to the field without formal education. Would you say they don't know any mathematics if they invented their own nomenclature?
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by asdff on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:15PM (#50458061)
Well it isn't like they are inventing their own nomenclature either. Where are Jimi's scale books he wrote in his own modes? He didn't operate in those terms. He was very much like my cat, having an insinct for a formalized theory he does not know the formalized language for.

Is it understanding formal music theory? No, only if you stretch the definition of formal music theory to include what is definitely not formal music theory by any one's definition.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:04PM (#50459332)
Look at the tablature for little wing and you will see that he most definitely did some sort of theorizing, as he was very structured and systematic.

My point is that what he did is what music theory describes, and he definitely arrived there. He most definitely could play the scales and the modes, even if he never used the word dorian.

There is just some allergic reaction to the word that people take to mean something along the lines of demeriting the artistry. Had he learned the diatonic chords would that mean he is no longer a no theory guy, and would that make him worse?

I know thats not what you are saying, but i do see that from the hardcore 'theory is bad' proponents. Is theory the names of the relationship between tones, or the relationships themselves?

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by freejazz on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @06:07PM (#50460243)
Except that Jimi Hendrix definitely knew music theory, no idea why you'd think he didn't. He had a great understanding of what he was playing.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by vintermann on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:08AM (#50463628)
He had a music theory I'm sure, but the overlap of that with what's currently being taught in conservatories (let alone what was taught in his time), I'm less sure about.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by freejazz on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:44AM (#50469291)
And?
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @07:14PM (#50460999)
I mostly agree with this.

Like, I know what a secondary dominant is because I've had to use it in blues turn arounds- I didn't know that's what some folks would call it, but I knew that in the key of G, I'd often play an A instead of the Am.

And I think that the vocabulary should describe what folks do rather than the doings being driven by the vocabulary.

Most guitar players (and improv folks) that I know have much more theory that the folks who are reading but who generally don't think about what the function of their line is in a larger song.

If you're playing by memory and ear, you have to have some concepts because you can't just read a part.

Those concepts -are- the theory.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:54AM (#50466437)
Yeah there's just a badge of honor to say that you don't know theory, as though it's something bad if you do, for some people, for some reason
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:12AM (#50468678)
I've seen it and I kind of get it. I have worked with folks who do things for theoretical reasons instead of describing what they do with these ideas.

At the same time, I wish more folks would learn to read music, or even be literate enough to read lead sheets- my life would be so much easier if folks could just show up and play the thing without spending hours learning from recordings and making whatever kind of esoteric notations they've made up.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by camcil on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @11:47PM (#50463168)
I'm not really tracking where your confusion is. You can very much so do or "discover" something in practice that a theory describes without knowing that theory. I'd say it's even very common to "know" certain notes/chords/whatnot sound good with others and not learn "why" until later on, if ever.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:57AM (#50466464)
My confusion is: why would you say that they don't know theory if they know the thing that the theory describes? If a person builds a radio by themselves, would you say that they don't know engineering because they didn't get a formal education on it? If a person figures out how to make a derivative, would you say they don't know mathematics because they didn't study it formally?
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by camcil on Thursday November 12, 2026 @09:13AM (#50467471)
Well, yeah... absolutely. The theory describes why it works. I can know "this works" without knowing why it works.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:29AM (#50468995)
Theory in my experience is much more descriptive than explanatory.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by jawilson2 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:29AM (#50466800)
In Miles Davis' autobiography, Davis talked about how they jammed a few times. Davis would tell him to play a particular chord or scale, and Hendrix had no idea what it was at first, e.g. "try an E minor diminished yada yada there... a mixolydian scale would work on top of these changes..."

Once Davis taught him the concepts he got them immediately, or it might be a chord he knew and played, but didn't know the formal name of. So, he was a brilliant intuitive musician, but didn't have the theory chops of someone who attended Juliard like Davis.

That is what we mean by Hendrix didn't know the theory.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:38AM (#50466905)
Yeah he didn't know the names of the concepts that he already knew. My intuition says music theory is the understanding of the concepts, not the formal study of the names. Like a person that can only play the major scale because they studied the theory, in my mind they have less mastery of theory than a person that can compose "Little Wing" or "Lenny" without ever studying it.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by jawilson2 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @01:49PM (#50472217)
To me, the theory is as much a communication tool as a knowledge. It is a common language for musicians to communicate musical ideas, at a higher level than musical notation. E.g. I can go to a jazz open mic, someone says the progression is "ii V I in Dminor", or a blues jam and its "I IV V, A major", or a Grateful Dead-type jam and its all mixolydian in B, and everyone is on the same page out of the gate. The theory is you know all of the scale modes, AND what they are called, AND can tell another musician what you're doing and why. Tons of people can play interesting things outside of the box, without know why or how it's defined.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by javier123454321 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @07:07PM (#50476317)
I can get behind this definition. But even following that definition, people without theory knowledge who know how to play would know a third of theory if you split the three categories that you said equally. I venture to say that the concepts themselves weigh more than an even third though.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by CGMthrowaway on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @03:33PM (#50458280)
Music notation on a 5-line staff is just another in the category of "shapes," along with pentatonic scales on a fretboard. Theory is another matter though.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by notnmeyer on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @05:25PM (#50459626)
the only thing id clarify is that a lot of them won’t _formally_ know music theory, but their playing demonstrates can demonstrate a deep understanding of it.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by freejazz on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @06:06PM (#50460223)
It's just really all about the ear and there's plenty of fabulous guitar players who will tell you to transcribe Charlie Parker but tell you don't bother playing scales for hours a day
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @07:09PM (#50460953)
Honestly, I know a ton of folks sitting 5th chair violin in a community orchestry or playing 3rd trumpet in a big band who have no idea what note in the chord they are playing and just reading and repeating the line.

Most of the musicians I know have very minimal theory, ironically even less than folks who can't read.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by hateful on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @02:49PM (#50457684)
Playing guitar, at least for me, is all geometry. The fifth is the next string two frets up (like the knight in chess, I just realized) and so on. Each chord is a shape - so if your starting with a note, you kind of know where to go after a while.
Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by jawilson2 on Thursday November 12, 2026 @08:23AM (#50466725)
I've played guitar for over 30 years now, and it is 100% geometry to me, or Tetris pieces. A D chord is a triangle, A chord is a line, a minor barre chord with a root on the 2nd string is stair steps, etc.

One of the things that is bittersweet about learning a song is that it can take the magic out of the song; instead of just hearing it, I am thinking in chord shapes, positions, lead lines, etc.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by scarecrowbob on Thursday November 12, 2026 @10:06AM (#50468567)
I've got multiple ways of listening.

I can't even Phish because if I'm on drugs I fall into listening-like-I-need-to-play-the-next-chord. Whereas a lot of songwriter music I can listen-like-I'm-reading-underegrad-poetry

I do feel that way about tetris, too. I think the reason I enjoy older jazz standards on bass is playing them is a little like solving a suduko- I can get a satisfying answer without much more than the melody. That doesn't work for modern rock where the riff is key. That kind of "well, it sounds okay but it doesn't line up with my idea of what makes sense" is my own anti-magical-feeling.

Re:The hardest notes to find on the guitar fretboard by CoolestBeans on Wednesday November 11, 2026 @08:05PM (#50461583)
Any resources or advice for someone who might be interested in learning pedal steel?