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Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by spwa4 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:29AM (#50413661)
If those tokens were to be passed on they'd have to be encoded somewhere, like DNA. And in DNA, there's no room. So ... where are they?
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by dingaling911 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:31AM (#50413686)
DNA is probably the seed for the random initialization.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by wernam on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:42AM (#50413766)
It's nice to throw around claims like that, or like "microtubules connect the brain the quantum realm" (Penrose). Fortunately that's not how science works.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by dingaling911 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:44AM (#50413780)
Science starts with a hypothesis. If DNA has everything encoded, then it stands to reason that it influences the initial state of the brain.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by wernam on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:55AM (#50413853)
> If DNA has everything encoded

It is not. There are many biological examples of random processes generating patterns and weights, such tiger stripes, fingerprints, etc. DNA only encodes the reaction, but the pattern itself is seeded by initial position of random molecules, not the DNA.

> that it influences the initial state of the brain.

You've gone from "DNA is probably the seed for the random initialization", as in the deterministic seed for a PRNG, to "influences". Those are 2 different claims.

Most scientists will agree that DNA encodes the large-scale connectivity in the brain, ie from region to region, thickness of corpus callosum etc.

Most scientists will disagree that it is "probable" that DNA encodes/seeds the weights of each and every synapse.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by alembic_fumes on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:18AM (#50414012)
I think you are mostly debating against a strawman of your own construction here. The person you're responding to never claimed that "seeding the random initialization" means literally the same thing as seeding a pseudo-random number generator, and the second message was likely intended as a clarification after being misunderstood. So it's not "2 different claims" contradicting; it's a single underlying claim being expressed through a lossy medium in an increasing level of detail.

My own reading of the poster's intent aligns with this: "DNA encodes the large-scale connectivity in the brain, ie from region to region, thickness of corpus callosum etc."

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by wernam on Sunday November 08, 2026 @11:04AM (#50414402)
The grandparent comment is: "humans aren’t born with randomly initialised neural weights", with commenters throwing around harebrained hypotheses about those weights.

Most biologists will fully disagree with the whole premise, and support the reverse claim that we are born with random weights, we learn to walk/speak English/etc after we're born. Not from weights in our DNA.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by AndrewDucker on Monday November 09, 2026 @05:25AM (#50423674)
Yes, but there is clearly DNA scaffolding needed. The closest related animals to us cannot speak English, no mater how much training they are given.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by spwa4 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @11:03AM (#50414392)
Except Penrose is like Chomsky. They have past accomplishments, but nothing recent and everybody keeps bringing them up because they constantly comment on stuff so far outside of their area of expertise it's not funny anymore, it's just sad.

At least Penrose had the good manners to make a relevant contributions (meaning Chomsky effectively managed to steer his field in entirely the wrong direction and nobody uses his contributions today in study)

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by hardbass on Sunday November 08, 2026 @12:59PM (#50415504)
Most scientists think Penrose's theory of microtubules is wrong, however he is still far better than many consciousness theorists in giving an actual testable criterion.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by dingaling911 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @12:00PM (#50414976)
I understand what happened. You took my claim literally. Like DNA translates by a simple function to random initialization. I was saying that all else being equal, DNA will influence the way the brain initializes. Of course, many factors will influence it.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by nico on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:05AM (#50413924)
This is actually a genius idea. Imagine being able to compress a 1T parameter model to 10M params by creating a lossy model-scaffolding, like DNA

Something that more or less guarantees you’ll get about the same capabilities as the original model, but with a different final expression of certain characteristics

I wonder if this could be a good distribution model too, selling “dried” models (almost like raisins - or the beings from the 3 body problem), and then you can buy them to fully train (raise?) with your own data

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by spwa4 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:56AM (#50414325)
Aside from violating everything we know about neural networks (technically this would mean there is a way to reduce the rank of even something like ChatGPT to 1. There isn't. No way) it would also be VERY unlike what DNA does. DNA has lots of ways to express things that aren't easily disturbed by mistakes. Those mistakes are then an actual positive, in the very long term, because they help natural selection along.

A random seed that works would be the exact opposite of that.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by nico on Sunday November 08, 2026 @05:36PM (#50418186)
> Aside from violating everything we know about neural networks

Not sure exactly what this means

But there’s prior art on the concept of compressing models through lossy representations

In particular, procedural generation of models, check out HyperNEAT (2009), HyperNetworks (2017) and Developmental Symbolic Encoding (2011)

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by spwa4 on Monday November 09, 2026 @10:48AM (#50427188)
> Not sure exactly what this means

It means that neural networks are a mistake, that they don't really have to be as complex as they are and animal minds could just calculate directly from the seed as opposed to building and powering this very expensive organ. The brain uses more power than any muscle in essentially all mammals and even more in humans. Only olympic-level efforts come anywhere close to power usage like the brain on a single muscle. So your body is really giving up something serious to let you think, to keep track of 100 Trillion weights and constantly evaluate against them.

This would be something very strange for DNA/evolution to do. Especially where it comes to energy use, if it can be done with 10W of power, you can bet your firstborn DNA will NEVER under any circumstances get caught using 10.01W.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by dingaling911 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @11:36AM (#50414735)
I'm somewhat of a genius (self-described.)

I like your idea of "base" models for sale.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by derac on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:37AM (#50413734)
The data is massively conpressed and pruned. Where are the input tokens in an LLM?
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by zardo on Sunday November 08, 2026 @09:58AM (#50413869)
Tokens being passed on would be what, you close your eyes and experience your ancestors lives?
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by horsawlarway on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:23AM (#50414050)
No. More like, your ancestors that have a fight or flight response survive more often and have passed that down.

Or that infants with a rooting response survive much more often.

Basically, weights encoded biologically from hereditary behavior.

Instincts.

Now, the real conundrum is that if our DNA can really only encode ~12gb then how are we passing this information down?

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by ziofill on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:09AM (#50413951)
This is such a beautiful question. It looks like a miracle that a brain, let alone a whole body, can grow from such little data. Michael Levin has been doing a lot of research on this, you should check him out.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by spwa4 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:54AM (#50414306)
The thing is ... once those nerves are operational they bring in boatloads of data, which is useful and obviously tuned and very relevant to the specific body the neural network finds itself in.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by ACCount39 on Sunday November 08, 2026 @10:37AM (#50414179)
No room - or is there?

FractalDB proves that "synthetic data useful for training AI" can be produced by a very small program.

There is "no room" in DNA for a full dataset, or a full snapshot of model weights. But there's plenty of room for "this one little trick cuts the data required to learn a desirable thing X in half". Low Kolmogorov complexity, but high performance gains.

Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by kikoreis on Sunday November 08, 2026 @11:02AM (#50414387)
Well keep in mind we receive from our mothers an entire functional cell. DNA is a bit overrated.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by metalspot on Sunday November 08, 2026 @01:35PM (#50415763)
biological life is a continuous networked system. watch avatar. lol.
Re:Quadrillion-parameter transformers and how to train them by __MatrixMan__ on Sunday November 08, 2026 @02:11PM (#50416071)
As memes in the environment. Choices made by parents while raising us, things we hear from our peers, etc.

Also as aspects of nature... Its not just genes for a system that can feel pleasure or pain but also a mapping from that system to a set of textures, temperatures, and frequencies that take that system beyond certain thresholds. Plus a large set of environmental inputs that cause the system to grow in different ways in response to different stimuli.