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Re:Page Weight Matters by ghshephard on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:17PM (#4958153)
While I appreciate (and agree with) the overall theme (Make your pages light, so people on < 10mbit/second links have access them, opening them up as a market to you - this works well for people on older GPRS/GSM links in the developing world) - I don't understand the math. Presuming there are parts of the world still stuck in 1997 analog modem technology, then 100 Kilobytes / 56.6 kilobits/second = 14 seconds.

At two minutes, there are people out there with 6.6 kilobit links connecting to youtube?

I suspect there might be a bit of hyperbole in this article as well, because, even if there were people connecting on ultra slow links, the average latency of those connections is likely to be be wiped out by the tens of millions of broadband links.

Re:Page Weight Matters by gwillen on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:24PM (#4958170)
Most of the page-load delay tends to come from dropped packets and unnecessary round-trips, rather than from bandwidth limitations.
Re:Page Weight Matters by mdonohue on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:26PM (#4958340)
So "page weight" isn't the issue then, contradicting the title. It's the pipeline depth of the page.
Re:Page Weight Matters by Retric on Saturday December 22, 2012 @10:09PM (#4958407)
Dropped packets are directly related to "page weight" and get worse depending on latency.

400 round trips * 500ms latency is 3 min 20 seconds. This took 20 minutes to load 1 megabyte.

Re:Page Weight Matters by foobarian on Saturday December 22, 2012 @10:26PM (#4958453)
In other words the bandwidth really is something like 6.6 kbps instead of the nominal rate.

(Really, did anyone ever get the nominal 56k modem rate back in the day?)

Re:Page Weight Matters by keithpeter on Sunday December 23, 2012 @05:36AM (#4959164)
Yes as it happens, pretty close. Unfortunately British Telecom had a policy of dropping data connections after 2 hours in those days...
Re:Page Weight Matters by masklinn on Sunday December 23, 2012 @05:05AM (#4959121)
No.
Re:Page Weight Matters by Silhouette on Sunday December 23, 2012 @06:49AM (#4959268)
Page weight is an issue generally, but particularly for people on mobile where there are often relatively low bandwidth caps before the insane fees kick in.

Page "girth", the number of different parts of a page that need loading via separate requests, is often a more significant issue for performance, again particularly on mobile devices but this time because wireless connections tend to be less reliable and even a modest increase in dropped packets can really hit your effective page load time.

Re:Page Weight Matters by toast0 on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:28PM (#4958185)
For small transfers, you're going to need to account for tcp slow start and latency instead of just dividing data size by bandwidth. You also need to include latency for DNS lookups. HTTP Keep-Alive and reducing domains referenced can help a lot here.
Re:Page Weight Matters by rtkwe on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:57PM (#4958267)
It the page could download in one burst without any breaks the calculation would be correct. However those 14 requests aren't all run at once and end up triggering sequentially. It goes something like GET youtube.com, process reply, find other resources needed GET youtube.com's CSS, etc. etc.

Combined with link delays, dropped packets, long round trip times and the like you get a much slower nominal bandwidth.

Re:Page Weight Matters by mamby on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:30PM (#4958192)
No hyperbole, that's the truth. I'm an african and broadband is just a name! The net is faster but still very slow... Chris knows what he's saying :)
Re:Page Weight Matters by ghshephard on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:39PM (#4958213)
Oh, I know that developing country links are slow - I just thought it was a stretch to suggest that they are connecting to youtube so frequently after the page went from 2MB to 100 kilobytes that they shifted the average latency up.

It's okay though, sometimes a bit of hyperbole does a better job of getting the story across.

Re:Page Weight Matters by shashashasha on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:41PM (#4958371)
I think they were talking about just a small opt-in % of Youtube traffic, and that that percentage had a higher average latency than the rest of Youtube (vs shifting Youtube's entire traffic average).
Re:Page Weight Matters by morpher on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:35PM (#4958358)
The article states that the lighter page was opt-in. Thus a bias towards people for whom the heavy page was unusable is not surprising.
Re:Page Weight Matters by chacham15 on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:04PM (#4958283)
My 1997 analog modem connected to the internet at an average speed of 3.3 kbps.
Re:Page Weight Matters by rglullis on Sunday December 23, 2012 @04:10AM (#4959031)
Let me FTFY: 3.3KBps
Re:Page Weight Matters by Joeri on Sunday December 23, 2012 @05:34AM (#4959163)
On dialup (western europe) i used to get around 6 KB / s. Combine that with high latency (1 second roundtrips) and a slow machine and 2 minutes doesn't sound crazy to me for a 100 kb page.

And ofcourse, nowadays if i'm on a train my phone will often downgrade to gprs speeds, and it feels like i'm back on dialup having to wait a minute for a page to load.

Re:Page Weight Matters by ShardPhoenix on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:19PM (#4958156)
Perhaps there's a delay in doing those 14 different requests? My phone is very fast when downloading apps, but sometimes still takes a long time to load a page.
Re:Page Weight Matters by roopeshv on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:26PM (#4958177)
single digit kbps is very common speed in some parts of the world, and you'd not think it's possible until you actually experience it personally. combine it with trying to multitask by loading multiple pages in browser, where by you are basically trying to share those single digit speeds among multiple pages.
Re:Page Weight Matters by ghshephard on Saturday December 22, 2012 @08:46PM (#4958231)
I'm curious - what part of the world has single digit kbps links to the internet?

I spent a month all over Brazil, and, while it was painful trying to work from some areas near Belem - it was either 80kbits+/second on GPRS or no connectivity whatsoever.

Re:Page Weight Matters by Isofarro on Sunday December 23, 2012 @03:29AM (#4958978)
Its not about geography, it's about infrastructure.

For a good couple of years visiting my parents in inland South Africa (just outside the major sprawl of the PWV), I was regularly seeing 1 to 2kbps speeds on dial up modem. South Africa only has one phone company, Telkom.

The price of copper affects the quality of the telephone lines. We live in an area that's quickly growing, but the availability of copper is low. So there's shared telephone lines, which creates noise, which slows down modem connections.

Yeah, they can string out more copper cables to work through the shared lines, but when those copper cables disappear as quickly as they are put up, it is very difficult to make progress. Copper theft in South Africa is big.

And the shared telephone lines are deemed acceptable because Telkom support it only for telephone calls, not modem connections. They are reluctant to fix things that are not broken.

So landlines are effectively useless in fast growing areas, there's not enough copper cable to go around to give people a decent clear line to a dial-up ISP, let alone broadband.

I've moved my parents over to mobile broadband now, with a Mifi device that appeared on the market last year, so those download speeds are hopefully a thing of the past.

Essentially, developing countries need to skip their subpar landlines and invest heavily in mobile broadband abilities. They can't afford the long term cost of replacing copper cables over and over and over.

Re:Page Weight Matters by Dylan16807 on Tuesday December 25, 2012 @06:07PM (#4967393)
I can't help but wonder if they could avoid using copper.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/09/23/british-t...

Re:Page Weight Matters by cbs on Saturday December 22, 2012 @09:31PM (#4958348)
I'm curious - what part of the world has single digit kbps links to the internet?

Just off the top of my head, rural Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine.

Re:Page Weight Matters by mosburger on Saturday December 22, 2012 @10:26PM (#4958455)
Hey now - I live in Maine, I can't think of anywhere with single digit kbps internet! My in-laws live in the sticks, in a town w/ a population of 600, and even they have DSL.
Re:Page Weight Matters by amichal on Monday December 24, 2012 @12:45PM (#4963508)
~10Kbps. Southern VT. 0.1 mile from a cable provider and 2 miles from 4G cell coverage. Live on the wrong road and you are out if luck.

Solutions tried by people I know (all since 2005)

* Satalite radio (helps with downlink but uplink is still via modem) * Pay $700/mo for 1.5mb commercial T1 (1.5MBps). Took the ISP 3 days to do the line engineering from the CO. * Long distance point to point wifi (@2.4GHz ~1mile and 800Mhz 10+ miles) * HAM radio packet networking. Slow but fun * Running 1/2 mile+ of Ethernet cable (with inline repeaters) through the woods and hoping no one messes with them * Combinationa of the above.

Hisghspeed Internet access in rural/hilly areas is a major challange. We pay a few dollars every month on our phone bills as a special state tax to fund the ISPs to provide it. Have for years. still a problem.