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Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by thatguy0900 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @02:36PM (#46637980)
I mean you can say stuff like that but the reality is they purposefully named themselves after a super villains magical spy apparatus so I'm not inclined to take his word about them being ethically neutral. Like I'm not really sure what they could name themselves after that would be more ominous
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by ahazred8ta on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:10PM (#46638458)
The palantirs were made by the elf lord prince Fëanor of Valinor, one of the good guys. The one we see in the film was given to the kings of Gondor and then pilfered by Saruman. (elvish palan 'far', tir 'watch over')
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by datsci_est_2015 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:22PM (#46638676)
This almost makes it funnier? As if it’s the folly of creators to believe that their creations are by virtue untethered to morals and ethics, and it’s only through their use by amoral or unethical actors that they become so.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:45PM (#46639036)
Tools are always neutral. The hammer doesn't become evil merely because you used it to bash someone's brains in. Tools do not make choices; humans do.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by J_McQuade on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:59PM (#46639228)
This is an incredibly silly thing to say. If someone makes a knife that is terrible at carving wood or cutting food but is the perfect shape for, say, clitorectomies... then maybe that tool is bad and we should probably stop making it.

Yes, people choose to make it and people choose to use it. But, like... stop those people, right?

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:13PM (#46639396)
This hypothetical knife that you've invented still doesn't make any choices. A person still makes the choice of how and when to use it. That's all that matters. Only things that can choose to act can be judged as ethical or unethical.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by evan_ on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:19PM (#46639477)
The tool is a lump of metal apart from ethics, but making the cliterectomy-knife was a choice someone made. We can judge that decision.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Dracophoenix on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:34PM (#46639655)
Morality requires agency and conscious agreement. A machine/device doesn't choose to be made or operated nor can it act against its maker/operator any more than rocks can act against the Earth. Regardless of motive, a moral conclusion can't be reached about the object.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by datsci_est_2015 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:50PM (#46639107)
This is reductionist. Surely you’ve heard of the Torment Nexus?

This is along the lines of “If I don’t do it, someone else will get paid to, so it might as well be me that gets paid to do it” which I personally find morally abhorrent.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by drdaeman on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:15PM (#46639430)
> Torment Nexus

You’re bringing in something that’s (vaguely and poorly, for no one knows what it actually could be) defined as something that fits the narrative and present it: “see, if we think up a tool that’s inherently evil by definition of it, it cannot be neutral”. We might, but could such tool actually exist?

(And before we joke about building it, we can think up of its polar opposite too, something unquestionably good that just cannot be evil in the slightest. Again, I’m afraid, no such thing can exist in reality.)

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by datsci_est_2015 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @06:15PM (#46640801)
Isn’t the purpose of all thought experiments to define something that is relevant to what you’re trying to philosophize about? “Fitting a narrative” is a thought-terminating cliché.

If we agree that there exists at least one thing theoretically whose invention would be unequivocally evil - without a morsel of moral justification, then surely there exists a moral spectrum on which all inventions lie, and the inventors (and builders) are not absolved of their sins by virtue of not having actually used their inventions. Maybe you disagree that even in the case of the Torment Nexus the inventor has no moral reckoning (yikes). Maybe you disagree that it’s a spectrum, and rather binary: Torment Nexus immoral, everything else moral (weird).

That’s why I invoked the Torment Nexus.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by drdaeman on Friday January 16, 2026 @12:12AM (#46643195)
> If we agree that there exists at least one thing theoretically whose invention would be unequivocally evil

My issue is that your use of the phrase "exists ... theoretically" quietly steps across the boundary between ideal (where anything is possible), and real (where only some things are possible).

In other words, I think that Torment Nexus doesn't exist. Only its idea does, and I don't see how that's possibly sufficient. Kinda like faster-than-light travel - it would change a lot of things - but only it if would be a real thing. AFAIK to best of our understanding it's not. Even though the idea surely exists.

I rather think that it's the meme of Torment Nexus is the actual thought-stopper, because exploring what it could possibly be is what the meme warns one about.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by datsci_est_2015 on Friday January 16, 2026 @07:37AM (#46645810)
It’s really not that difficult to come up with a Torment Nexus that, given enough money, could be built today. I’m not sure why you’re convinced it could not exist. Just browse a bunch of Wikipedia articles about torture and ethnic cleansing and general injustice and connect some dots.

Another point of the Torment Nexus is that it’s dark humor that science fiction writers especially will ideate something in their writing, and spend great lengths discussing the inevitable harm it unleashes, only to wait a few years and watch as someone actually builds the thing they basically warned everyone about. It’s a placeholder for “thing so bad that I don’t actually want to describe it lest some psychopath actually builds it.”

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Dracophoenix on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:15PM (#46639421)
The "torment nexus" is just as reductionist a claim. It is almost always an ad hominem selectively invoked under arbitrary standards. If one followed the argument to its ultimate conclusion, nothing should invented or accomplished for fear of some speculative harm down the line.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by datsci_est_2015 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @06:09PM (#46640741)
Good thing following memes to their ultimate conclusion is a ridiculous proposition. I also don’t see the connection to its reference being an attack on character.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Dracophoenix on Thursday January 15, 2026 @07:00PM (#46641250)
> Good thing following memes to their ultimate conclusion is a ridiculous proposition.

If the conclusion of a meme is ridiculous, it stands to reason that the claim it makes is similarly so. Memes are not substantial enough to be considered as evidence or proof of moral pronouncements any more than other popularly-invoked and contextless aphorisms are.

> I also don’t see the connection to its reference being an attack on character.

The character attack comes from the implied framing of the invention of the so-called "torment nexus" as the direct product of a person or people exhibiting moral failure through action or inaction. What that particular moral failure is or whether it is a moral failure one at all isn't even given a cursory examination by those crying torment nexus.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by salawat on Saturday January 17, 2026 @09:58PM (#46664443)
Reasonably foreseeable is the tonic to cure your attempt at a dilemma. There's a certain beyond which you don't build things because it's evident that society can't be trusted with it.

I have unfortunately lived long enough to see my passion cross this line.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Dracophoenix on Sunday January 18, 2026 @07:43PM (#46673760)
If you don't mind answering, what exactly was this particular passion of yours?

> There's a certain beyond which you don't build things because it's evident that society can't be trusted with it.

Where does one draw the line and under what conditions? Reasonable minds can differ on the definition of foreseeable.

After all, Some of the most beneficial inventions to mankind have also aided its worst tendencies. For instance, the 20th and 21st centuries as we know them wouldn't exist without the combustion engine. Simultaneously, it's this same device that has significantly contributed to the pollution of the air.

Secondly, how does one mean to stop society or any individual from learning and building on new ideas in the Information age? Is such a thing even possible?

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by wahnfrieden on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:52PM (#46639140)
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by yndoendo on Thursday January 15, 2026 @09:01PM (#46642144)
Let say someone creates a tool, an android which is designed to kill everyone that believes in a religion the creator does not like. Is that tool neutral?

Only way to repurpose that tool is to destroy part if the tool and replace parts. It is now a different tool.

I say intention of the tool design dictates if the tool is "neutral". That hammer analogy is tool simplistic to the tools we can now create and are attempting to create.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by antonvs on Friday January 16, 2026 @11:22AM (#46648178)
It depends on your moral framework. For example if you believe killing is always wrong, then guns are not neutral - they're a tool designed for evil uses.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by bennettnate5 on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:57PM (#46639198)
> prince Fëanor

> one of the good guys

Uhhhh...

Feanor drew his sword on his half-brother and threatened to kill him because he was paranoid Fingolfin was trying to usurp his power. He compelled all of his sons to swear an oath to slay any man, elf or being in possession of the silmarils (which led to subsequent needless bloodshed).

Then he ordered and carried out the mass-murder of relatively unarmed Teleri in order to rob them of their ships.

Such actions does not a good guy make.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @06:17PM (#46640824)
And yet even Feanor was a “good guy” at one point in time. It wasn’t until many years after the invention of the palantiri that he went off the rails, and that was only after talking to Sauron for a while.

But I think that Feanor’s character is irrelevant. An evil person could create a tool that ends up being useful for good purposes. Tools are neutral; they don’t inherit the character of their creator or their user.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by immibis on Thursday January 15, 2026 @03:51PM (#46639126)
So it's literally the Elvish word for "television"...
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:04PM (#46639300)
Telescope, not television.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Terr_ on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:48PM (#46639814)
And more particularly, any remaining telescope after an apocalypse which caused all of them to be controlled and by a mind-destroying superhuman force of literal evil incarnate.

One can't just ignore that kind of subtext...

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @05:55PM (#46640603)
It’s not the palantir’s fault that Sauron exists. You might notice that there are several other psychic tools lying around that nobody is using because Sauron will enslave anyone who does. The Throne of Amon Hen, certain magic rings, etc, etc. The danger is Sauron, not the tools themselves.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by Terr_ on Thursday January 15, 2026 @06:09PM (#46640739)
So what? This was never about the moral culpability of the inanimate object itself. (Charitably ignoring, for the moment, that the One Ring was instead a part of Sauron, infused with his own life force. )

This is about the morality and judgment of any person who'd consciously choose to found "One-Ring Controls" (ORC inc.) selling the "Ringraith 3000" that spies on employees and punishes them for not working hard enough.

"Don't criticize me for my branding because fictional crystal-balls and rings are just objects" is not a credible defense.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @07:23PM (#46641442)
I haven’t defended Palantir the company at all. I don’t know anything about them. I was merely correcting misstatements about the fictional devices called palantiri.

Frankly the name is amazingly great branding. It makes the customers think, even if only subconsciously, that they have bought a literal crystal ball. That’s genius marketing. Once you’ve got your customers thinking magically about your product you can bamboozle them until the end of time.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by GuinansEyebrows on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:37PM (#46639686)
palantíri * (sorry, couldn't resist)

that it takes following the... (charitably) uncommon view that Fëanor was a "good guy" in spite of being a psychopathic thieving mass murderer to excuse the actions of Palantir (the company) should be an indicator that they're Bad, Actually.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by lII1lIlI11ll on Friday January 16, 2026 @05:17AM (#46644950)
> that it takes following the... (charitably) uncommon view that Fëanor was a "good guy" in spite of being a psychopathic thieving mass murderer to excuse the actions of Palantir (the company) should be an indicator that they're Bad, Actually.

While I agree with your assessment of Fëanor I don't think anything in Tolkien's texts indicate that there were nefarious intents for palantiri creation.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by ceejayoz on Thursday January 15, 2026 @02:39PM (#46638032)
> they purposefully named themselves after a super villains magical spy apparatus…

Worse, that spy apparatus inherently corrupts its users.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:03PM (#46639282)
That's a common misunderstanding. The Palantir never corrupted anyone. They only became dangerous to use once Sauron got his hands on one. You know, that immortal demon god who always uses mind control to get what he wants? If you use a Palantir he’ll notice and start working you over. If he is stronger than you are then he can force your Palantir to show you things of his choosing.

When Denethor used Gondor’s Palantir he saw orc armies marching and pillaging, foundaries forging weapons, Southrons marching north with Oliphants, corsairs raiding the coast, wildmen pillaging Rohan, etc, etc. Sauron never let him see allies coming to his aid, or his own troops winning battles.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by ceejayoz on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:21PM (#46639506)
> If he is stronger than you are then he can force your Palantir to show you things of his choosing.

I mean, that's worse.

Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by db48x on Thursday January 15, 2026 @06:03PM (#46640685)
No, that’s normal. See also newspapers, radio news, television news, cable news, Facebook, Twitter, The Algorithm, etc, etc. It’s not like Tolkien invented a new thing here; the wicked Vizier who tells the King selective truths is a trope practically as old as time.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by tokioyoyo on Thursday January 15, 2026 @04:31PM (#46639627)
Even if they’re the most evil corpo ever, the buyer is still the government. If a democratically elected government buys this products, I would assume, in large scale of things, the general population wants the most evil corpo.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by foobarchu on Thursday January 15, 2026 @07:34PM (#46641526)
This works is if-and-only-if you assume everyone involved is a good actor. In fact, many if not most in politics are bad actors, and voters largely believe said bad actors.
Re:‘ELITE’: The Palantir app ICE uses to find neighborhoods ... by wombatpm on Thursday January 15, 2026 @05:15PM (#46640137)
It’s not like they are overthrowing South American countries for favorable terms in pineapple and banana trade *cough*Dole*cough*Chiquita*cough*

Yet.