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Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @01:28PM (#46235044)
> created solely for myself; I never had the intention of making it [...] mainstream

This is how many artists have worked. They make something for themself, and one day they show it to someone else ... or they just get the urge to share it more widely, often without the hope that anyone will really be interested. Or they keep it for themself.

I think Tolkien is in that group, for example. But don't get the wrong idea from an extreme outlier: much of the time, others aren't interested, or not many are. Sometimes, nobody is interested until after you've forgotten about it or passed away. Who cares? That's one reason you need to make it for yourself. Also, I think that otherwise it provides much less expression and insight into another person, which is at the core of art. There is a fundamental human need to 'externalize the imagination'.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by alsetmusic on Thursday December 11, 2025 @02:24PM (#46235948)
Several years ago, I wrote an angry email to loved ones about something I’d seen in national news (USA) about my city. A friend replied saying that he thought I should submit it to a local paper. Ended up as an op-ed. Not a major claim to fame, but I was still pleased that someone cared enough about my words to publish.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by nospice on Thursday December 11, 2025 @02:32PM (#46236061)
> This is how many artists have worked. They make something for themself, and one day they show it to someone else

That model depended on personal wealth or (more often) patronage. Because the supply of wealthy patrons was limited, it meant that you had fewer artists pursuing their visions. Everyone else needed to find menial jobs.

Now, we democratized access to patronage, but it means that to support yourself, you need to deliver what gets you the most clicks, not what your soul craves.

I sort of wish we still had both models, but I think that wealthy patrons have gone out of fashion in favor of spending money on crypto and AI.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by eikenberry on Thursday December 11, 2025 @03:08PM (#46236457)
> That model depended on personal wealth or (more often) patronage.

"They make something for themself, .."

For the vast majority of people this means doing it on the side, in addition to their day-job. I've known a lot of artists in my time and we all have day jobs. You do art for yourself because you love to create, not expecting to make any significant money on it.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by nospice on Thursday December 11, 2025 @03:21PM (#46236616)
Right, which works great if your daytime job is being a professor at Oxford, but maybe less so if your only opportunity is farm labor or other physically exhausting job.

Today, more people have the opportunity to dabble in art than ever before.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by frutiger on Thursday December 11, 2025 @04:36PM (#46237508)
He started writing his stories long before he was a Professor. It was while he was a young man fighting in the First World War.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by nicbou on Thursday December 11, 2025 @08:51PM (#46239971)
Right, which works great if your daytime job is fighting in the trenches, but maybe less so if your only opportunity is software development or other mentally exhausting job.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by pdmccormick on Friday December 12, 2025 @08:34PM (#46251124)
Bravo lol
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mrec on Thursday December 11, 2025 @05:23PM (#46238094)
Personally I've found it much easier to sustain creative stuff on the side while doing a non-knowledge-based job than a knowledge-based one. Mental exhaustion is much more of a drag than physical. (Though the knowledge-based hours were longer too, which I'm sure was a factor.)
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @04:52PM (#46237716)
There are plenty of impovrished, struggling artists - it's a cliche - and especially unknown ones creating for themselves.

> Everyone else needed to find menial jobs.

That doesn't mean you can't create art. Anthony Trollope worked for the post office. Einstein, who externalized imagination in somewhat different way and attributed much to art, was a patent clerk. New York and LA are filled with waitstaff-artists. A friend hired a moving company that almost exclusively hired artists as movers (I know - they weren't too skinny?).

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by irishcoffee on Thursday December 11, 2025 @08:13PM (#46239710)
I sincerely never understood the “starving artist” thing. Everyone needs to be able to provide for themselves. The whole starving artist thing always came across (to me) as someone who refused to work because… art?

Art, like anything else, lines up somewhere between a hobby and a career. Similar to athletes, somehow the cream just rises to the top.

You never hear about “starving athletes” I guess is what I mean.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mbg721 on Thursday December 11, 2025 @08:14PM (#46239716)
You do sometimes hear of Olympians in the non-big-pro-league sports whose families make enormous financial and lifestyle sacrifices to let them train and compete.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:28PM (#46240211)
That was true for all Olympians before they allowed professionals to compete.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by corysama on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:22PM (#46240176)
There are definitely athletes who spend their entire prime years working in the minor leagues trying to get their big shot in the majors and never quite getting there.

It’s a life of constant travel, crazy hours and very little money.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:28PM (#46240206)
Those are big assumptions ...

> Art, like anything else, lines up somewhere between a hobby and a career.

Says who? Are you an artist? Many artists say - and I'm know nothing to doubt them - that they can give up art like you can give up food.

> Similar to athletes, somehow the cream just rises to the top.

No idea where you get that about art. Many complain that a lot of shlock rises to the 'top'. And how do we know about the cream that didn't rise? Many artists aren't discovered until they're old or dead - Van Gogh being the over-repeated example. But even Van Gogh!

It's easier in sports - you can win on the field; there's frequent, objective evidence. But that applies to clearly superior elite, who have access to training. With access Messi would probably be on top regardless, but the number of Messis is a statistical error. People who are professional-level but lower down the pyramid, whose names you don't recognize but who make up the overwhelming majority of athletes, often say it depends mostly on relationships. There are plenty of people like them, and if they get a job depends on their relationships with coaches, agents, etc. You hear about athletes that seem perfectly capable, some even good or very good, but getting no calls.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by squigz on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:43PM (#46240305)
> You never hear about “starving athletes” I guess is what I mean.

I mean, just because this isn't a trope doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you know anything about trying to get into pro sports of literally any type, you'll know that it's a lot of sacrifice for a long time. Most athletes who aren't literally the best in the world aren't paid a huge amount, and have to travel a lot to attend events to make that money.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @10:43PM (#46240652)
In the US, Congress passed a special law restricting the labor rights of minor league baseball players.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by fn-mote on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:53PM (#46240352)
> You never hear about “starving athletes” I guess is what I mean.

Go to the 'hood and see the one returning pro ball player interacting with forty no-money kids trying their hardest to make it.

All of the kids would be better off pursuing a higher-probability-of-success career (including unionized manual labor), but that's not what's happening.

Those are some starving athletes.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by fuzzfactor on Friday December 12, 2025 @10:47AM (#46245223)
What about anyone who is constantly performing full-time at the highest level of creativity, not particularly underfed, but only financially compensated at a fraction of what would be possible if there was adequate recognition of those abilities?

You know, the kind of recognition that can only come when good fortune also smiles on such a dedicated worker.

I guess not all that many can relate unless they are doing creative work themselves.

But that's always been the first thing that comes to mind when I hear "starving" artist.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday December 11, 2025 @03:40PM (#46236833)
> or passed away

A certain one-eared Dutchman comes to mind...

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @04:48PM (#46237668)
Somewhere online I saw photos of where The Dutchman lived while creating some of the paintings - dirty, dreary, lifeless, depresssing places. To see that all around and to imagine and create the mini-worlds in those painting - with their vivid, wild use of color and texture - is wondrous and wonderful.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday December 11, 2025 @05:02PM (#46237846)
I think he sort of lived in his own world. He was def pretty neurodivergent, in some way.

I [sort of] remember a movie, once, that had a kid basically doing a "Don Quixote" on the world, where his vision of everything was kind of wondrous.

Don't remember it well enough to recall its name, though...

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by ChrisMarshallNY on Thursday December 11, 2025 @07:44PM (#46239499)
I have to assume that someone has no idea what I was talking about, and thought that I was making some kind of ethnic slur. Sheesh. What do they teach, these days?

For elucidation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh

He died a pauper, but his work is some of the most valuable in history.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Thursday December 11, 2025 @09:32PM (#46240235)
No complaining about downvotes! lol

Yes, sometimes I can't even guess why. Drunk and missed the target? Those little arrows are poor GUI.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by fuzzfactor on Friday December 12, 2025 @10:51AM (#46245266)
Actually there has been a request to report suspected downvote-a-bots.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Friday December 12, 2025 @01:02PM (#46246723)
How would you objectively identify such a thing? 'I think this downvote is dumb' isn't sufficient, obviously.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by fuzzfactor on Friday December 12, 2025 @08:06PM (#46250962)
If the moderators have a record of who's doing the voting, it might even be possible for some form of AI to detect the most habitual negative sources.

It could happen.

For about the last year, about the only time I log in is to upvote somebody, and usually a while after I read their message. It can bug me for some time when it's one where I just can't settle for them being downvoted, or alternatively some upvotes are never enough.

Once logged in the sky can be the limit on my own comments sometimes, as I've mentioned before I guess all I have ever done is now known as responding to prompts.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Saturday December 13, 2025 @10:32AM (#46255230)
I thought you meant literal bots. It can't be hard to figure out which accounts are downvoting and even rate-limit it per time period, per discussion, per user downvoted, etc.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday December 12, 2025 @01:53PM (#46247344)
If they exist, I would probably be a candidate target for one (or more).

I have a number of Commissioner Dreyfus-level haters. One pops up, from time to time, screeches, and throws poo. It’s kind of cute, actually.

I cry myself to sleep, every night, over it.

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by mmooss on Friday December 12, 2025 @03:58PM (#46248867)
HN should make an exception and allow the poo emoji. It would save a lot of words and BS, and time-consuming attempts at rationlization, because really that's all some comments have to say: 'I don't like this, regardless of any evidence or reason or merit'. That would be honest - it's not the HN ideal but those comments are and will always be present regardless.

Imagine a comment with a string of poo comments beneath it. It would get their point across and the silliness would save bad feelings and flamewars. @dang should try it on April 1st or something. I'm serious - it would lighten things up a bit around here and, as I said, dispel a lot of white lies and manipulative posts.

If you post poo, that's the only character allowed in that comment, and maybe your only response allowed in that subthread. Also, you can't downvote the parent, and nobody can respond to or vote on a poo post. The UI would just be knowing how to manually enter the correct Unicode codepoint. New and recent accounts can't poop - bathrooms for regular customers only!

(I've now revised this comment about five times as I've refined my idea.)

Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by samdoesnothing on Thursday December 11, 2025 @03:07PM (#46236451)
Kafka is another.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by lutharvaughn on Thursday December 11, 2025 @05:30PM (#46238193)
If you are actually making it for yourself then it shouldn’t matter. I think sometimes people tell themselves they are doing it for them, but then they start thinking “well what would so and so think”. I know I’ve done it, but once I started actually making things for me, I could feel the difference.
Re:Craft software that makes people feel something by rikroots on Friday December 12, 2025 @12:18PM (#46246201)
This explains my entire drive with my work on my canvas library. I wanted to do something different with the way I was presenting my poems on my poetry website, so I went away and built something which would help me do just that. I didn't expect the library to take over the majority of my spare time for over a decade, but then I was having too much fun to stop.

The library's on GitHub and I could spam a link to it here, but it's much more exciting to spam a link to a poem that finally gets to use it - https://rikverse2020.rikweb.org.uk/poem/flaw