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Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by nelox on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @04:11AM (#46132147)
Humans everywhere seem wired to favour simple integer-ratio rhythms, but culture tweaks which rhythms become “natural.” This suggests a shared rhythm cognition backbone, yet enough flexibility to account for global musical diversity. The study is a solid counter to the claim that music structure is purely learned or arbitrary, while also showing culture doesn’t just ride on biology: it shapes what we actually use.

If you’re into music cognition, evolution of culture, or cognitive universals vs cultural diversity, this is the kind of data you want to see.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @04:33AM (#46132329)
And a strong tendency for integer ratios in chords. So is this about compressibility?
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @07:46AM (#46133866)
Many just intonation chords (where ratios are actually integers, not approximations of them) will sound out of tune to most people.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @08:35AM (#46134322)
Out of tune or just cold?
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @09:03AM (#46134575)
Typical person on the internet will be really used to 12 tone equal temperament, for just tuning most intervals are 10+ cents off even if you allow pretty large ratios: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_equal_temperament#/media/Fi...
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by derpified on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:03AM (#46135289)
But the whole point of 12-TET is it is a close approximation of those just intervals while still allowing multiple keys to be played without retuning the instrument. If the close mathematical approximation didn't exist, there would be no reason to tune your instruments with a logarithmic recurrence relation.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:59AM (#46136012)
> allowing multiple keys to be played without retuning the instrument

That's another simplification, real pianos are not tuned to 12TET, but use stretch tuning (which can be over 30cents off in the lower range).

I'd rather argue that people like what they're used to and so "people like pure ratios" is seemingly only true if "pure ratios" are not really pure. And that's ignoring a lot of the music that doesn't have roots in Europe.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by euroderf on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:26AM (#46135563)
FWIW it doesn't get better than 12-TET until you get to (like) 53-TET.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by pierrec on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @12:09PM (#46137036)
Both statements are true. We have a strong tendency for integer ratios in harmony, and just intonation often sounds out of tune.

Integer ratios are the base upon which harmony is built. Temperament is a subtle modification that sounds very close to integer ratios, but allows more complex harmonic structures where dissonance is evenly spread out across all the relationships between tones.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @01:45PM (#46138304)
Seventh and eleventh harmonics are way off. If ratios were the fundamental thing Bohlen–Pierce would be about as pleasant as 12TET to people.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by pierrec on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @01:52PM (#46138396)
Way off what? Complex ratios are likely to be heard as out-of-tune simple ratios, that's why they sound off. A concept sometimes called tolerance in music cognition. Note that by "complexity" and "simplicity" I'm referring to harmonic distance here.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @02:01PM (#46138507)
7/4 ratio should be simple, but it'll sound out of tune (over 30 cents) in a normal context. Many BP intervals are just as simple and they'll sound very out of tune to people unused to them.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by pierrec on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @02:30PM (#46138873)
7/4 happens to be approximately 30 cents away from 16/9. It's hard to tell what's "simple" when looking at fractions, but 16/9 is indeed simple: divide by 3 twice and adjust the octave. If we assume octave equivalence, that means one step in the "7" direction is perceived as more complex than 2 steps in the "3" direction, so the second interpretation wins, but is perceived as out-of-tune.

That said, we're trying to isolate things that are typically not isolated. If you get to 7/4 by following the harmonic series, it will sound in-tune. If you get to 16/9 by playing and applying 4/3 twice, then that will sound in tune. Unsurprisingly the second option is more common in music.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @03:13PM (#46139453)
Before 7th harmonic all you have is octaves, fifths and major thirds. If you want to stick to making other pitches out of stacked fifths and major thirds you'll end up with other compromises.
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by codeulike on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @06:21AM (#46133190)
Integer frequency ratios in chords are probably favoured because of the way overtones line up and make the cilia of the inner ear vibrate
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by mettamage on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @05:30AM (#46132823)
I don't think it's only humans. All kinds of animals would benefit from knowing that awhoo comes from a wolf and that, in this example, awhoo awhoo is the same sound coming from the same wolf or that an animal recognizes that the first awhoo comes from one wolf and the second awhoo from another wolf.

It also helps for an animal to know the volume of these awhoos as it is a good proxy for closeness, and therefore danger. It's even a good thing to know the rhythm of these awhoos as it helps again to assess if these wolves, or wolf, is on the move while awhooing or on the move between awhoos.

And this is just one example I'm currently making up bit at least makes sense that for many animals: tempo, volume, rhythm, patterns in sound, it's needed for survival. So evolution will select for it.

Music is a lot more than just those things I think, but it at least shows some evolutionary backbone as to why I believe that more animals have been evolved to like music. At least, some elephants sure seem to enjoy a good piano [1].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFIT87yPNYk

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @05:40AM (#46132907)
Musical appreciation is almost shockingly absent from animals.

One possible reason is that allowing one’s nervous system to be entrained to external rhythms is potentially exploitable. So humans may have evolved the ability to “let the guard down.”

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by robot-wrangler on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @06:07AM (#46133082)
This is pretty fascinating, do you have anything else to say about it? Makes me think of mesmerism and snake-charmers, although IDK how real that is.

Another thing that comes to mind is recent pop-sci talking about how individual bees can measure time pretty accurately, which I personally found very surprising, even though I've heard that they "dance" for communication.

Rhythm appreciation is neurologically very interesting since it requires several basic abilities acting at once, including tracking time, but also a certain amount of memory and pattern recognition. Animal appreciation of melodic stuff and harmony is interesting too but seems much harder to study and more dependent on physical aspects of ears

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by dr_dshiv on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @06:40AM (#46133346)
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by hmokiguess on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:16AM (#46135448)
What a fascinating answer, this makes a lot of sense from a chaos theory perspective. Exploiting a hyper developed sense with modern tooling
Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by the_other on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:49AM (#46135855)
I have a theory for this, but I don't know how I'd test for it (and I don't work in the field).

We have a time window within which audio stimulae are interpreted as being "the same sound". When you hear two impulses outside that window, they seem to be different sounds. You can play with this by looping two similar or copies of a sound and then varying their offset a few ms either way. They'll move in and out of seeming like the same and different sounds, and around the crossover point you get ringing effects (especially if there's more than two copies, such as with tight echoes).

To me, this seems like a fundamental part of music interpretation. Not the core, but very significant.

Also, different species have different time perceptions. (I mean, I'm kinda guessing, but they all have different heart rate ranges, attention spans, brain wave frequency ranges etc, all of which imply to me a varience in time perception). Our music makes sense against our time perception; we're quite sensitive to it... raise the bmp of a track by just 2 or 3 and it feels quite different. Change from 50% swing to 53% (or 52 if you're really sensitive) and your sense of the groove changes meaningfully. Pass all that through the "different perception of time" and it's easy to imagine our music means nothing to other species.

It also seems likely to me that:

a) most species have different sized windows

b) they perceive blends of frequencies quite differently depending on the window length

So, what seems like coherent, organised sound with a "story" or "meaning" or "structure" to us, probably becomes mush to most other species.

Then note that the different frequency ranges in which animals hear, the different ways their ears focus sound... etc. Us humans are creating organised sound around the biology of our auditory system; the perception of organisation is likely very different for most other species.

Just the difference between boom and bap, boom ... bap... boom... bap... tells us "something". but it's gonna tell you something different if you hear it as ttppssssss daaaaapppp ttpppssssss ddaaappppp.

Music is a hack.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IAmBroom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @11:11AM (#46136177)
That's a wild claim. Online media abounds with vids of dogs and cows showing obvious attention to music.

Edit: and... songbirds exist.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IAmBroom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @11:14AM (#46136219)
> All kinds of animals would benefit from knowing that awhoo comes from a wolf and that, in this example, awhoo awhoo is the same sound coming from the same wolf or that an animal recognizes that the first awhoo comes from one wolf and the second awhoo from another wolf.

Interesting choice of example. Dog howls are apparently intentionally off-key.

The goal of the basic choir is to sound like one voice in perfect harmony.

The goal of a pack howling over long distances is apparently to communicate that every member of the pack is present - so each voice is out of harmony with the rest.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by IsTom on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @07:44AM (#46133861)
> Humans everywhere seem wired to favour simple integer-ratio rhythms

That's what people write in the sheet music, but reality is more complicated than that. Notably in swung rhythms ratios are blurry (and dependent on BPM) and specific performers in band will play different ratios at the same time (e.g. drummer will play straighter, soloist will swing more).

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by derpified on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @10:41AM (#46135757)
I'm not an expert but I was just looking into this so I will leave this link here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_rhythm

If I understand it right, Toussaint's 2005 paper showed that many common rhythms across world music can be generated by distributing beats as evenly as possible. Some of the patterns in this newer research are Euclidean, but the broader finding is that people have a natural affinity for small-integer-ratio rhythms generally. So this is empirical evidence of why these mathematically simple patterns (including Euclidean rhythms) show up across world music.

Re:What, if anything, is universal to music cognition? (2024) by somenameforme on Wednesday December 03, 2025 @11:32PM (#46143832)
The Chinese guqin [1] tends to defy this trend. The somewhat surprising thing is that it's extremely pleasant and relaxing to listen to even for somebody who did not grow up with it. You'd think the acharacteristic playing patterns for it would be jarring to a foreign ear.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ninn-CfAMy8