News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by next_xibalba on Monday October 13, 2025 @07:47PM (#45574598)
The Chinese heavily subsidize their companies and have large government bureaus that strategically guide industries over long time frames. For example, the CCP has been on a long, intentional path to destroying all international solar manufacturers via subsidies, dumping, etc.

This is not how free markets function.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by higginsniggins on Monday October 13, 2025 @08:11PM (#45574769)
A free market just means that people are allowed to buy and sell what they want. If a government decides to help some industries that is irrelevant.

It stops being free when government attacks economic activity, not when it promotes it.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by nine_k on Monday October 13, 2025 @08:30PM (#45574883)
"Dumping" (selling at an artificially low price) is widely considered an attack on economic activity of the competitors, even though it may spur the economic activity of the consumers of the products being dumped.

In this regard, the Chinese government pouring large subsidies into solar panel production both spurred the economic activity around installing solar panels, and attacked / thwarted in around production of the panels themselves, if the production happens outside China. Only the US was able to somehow develop solar panel production.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by higginsniggins on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:25AM (#45576244)
"attack on economic activity of the competitors"

Thats competition. It is a feature of markets.

not a bug.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by LunaSea on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:26AM (#45576556)
Not when its done with the help of a government.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by deadfoxygrandpa on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @10:01PM (#45587271)
why not?
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by maximus_01 on Monday October 13, 2025 @09:02PM (#45575083)
I'm not really disagreeing with you as it's not like there is a 100% true definition of a free market, different people can have different conceptions, but the original Adam Smith / classical view is that a free market should essentially be 100% driven by the private market on supply and demand - with as little government intervention as possible on either side of the ledger (subsidy or blocking)
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by throttlebody on Monday October 13, 2025 @10:03PM (#45575479)
Monopoly is a free market game and thete is only one winner. Free markets as such is an utopia dream.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by maximus_01 on Monday October 13, 2025 @10:11PM (#45575526)
Except it isn't at all. The properties to buy all have a fixed price, costs of houses/hotels are fixed, rents are fixed and can't be adjusted, and most importantly, a) you can only buy a property if you randomly happen to land on it and b) people have no choice of what property to stay at (again, chosen by random dice)
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by flybarrel on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @12:32AM (#45576289)
mmm by that definition, which market is truly free market again? I'm not sure you can find one tbh
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by hvb2 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:50AM (#45576694)
Commodities, large number of buyers and a large number of sellers all buying/selling an equivalent product.

No buyer has power to set prices and no seller does either.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @07:49PM (#45574611)
Lol, how is this not a free market? Apple subsidizes dozens of organizations internally to advance its strategic interests, what’s the difference?
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by next_xibalba on Monday October 13, 2025 @07:51PM (#45574628)
I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to spot the difference between Apple and the Chinese government.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @07:53PM (#45574651)
I’m not hearing an argument, and I won’t be thinking one up for you. Seems like only a difference of degree to me.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by maximus_01 on Monday October 13, 2025 @09:06PM (#45575122)
I'm not here to debate whether free markets are good or bad, but governments have a privileged position versus private companies, and effectively operate above the law (again at least compared to private companies). Any government intervention takes us away from a free market, either a little bit or a lot, depending on the action. Apple is a private company. Anything it does is really part of the free market, at least in the original meaning of that as described by Adam Smith and co.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by nicoburns on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:56PM (#45576112)
> governments have a privileged position versus private companies, and effectively operate above the law

A lot of private companies effectively operate above the law too! In theory the law can be enforced on them. In practice it often isn't.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @09:34PM (#45575306)
We’re talking about China subsidizing goods that it sells in another country. This is bread and butter “free market” behavior. Literally every company in the world does this one way or another.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by maximus_01 on Monday October 13, 2025 @09:56PM (#45575429)
No, that is not the free market at work at all. I agree it happens however. We simply don't live in a 100% free market world.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:10PM (#45575858)
I bet you can’t name a single company that doesn’t perform some critical function at a loss.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by bdangubic on Monday October 13, 2025 @10:09PM (#45575516)
“subsidising” and “free market” are antonyms we learn in 3rd grade language arts class :)
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:10PM (#45575852)
How about “loss leader”? Ever use napkins at a diner? Buy Costco chicken? I think you are repeating things you were taught but they aren’t true
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by bdangubic on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:22PM (#45575918)
I guess I have heard it all, the Government is providing napkins at diners and buying up Costco chicken, missed that one in the budget
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:41PM (#45576038)
My friend, what is so special about the government? If a company uses its massive profits in one area to crus competition by selling at a loss in another area, this is the free market, and when a government does it it is something else? I think you have not thought this through
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by maximus_01 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @03:38AM (#45577237)
Private companies do things to maximize profits. They might lose money on some stuff to make more on other things, and there might be some gunk in the system but they are almost all laser focused on making bigger profits.

Governments have lots of other incentives (like job creation, elections, income distribution)

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by bdangubic on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @09:37AM (#45579901)
Why don't we abolish any business altogether and just have government run everything? There are countries where this is normal, perhaps not "free market" countries like maybe us? :)
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by next_xibalba on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @03:59PM (#45584094)
OK, let me help a bit more.

A government has a monopoly on violence. A government has a monopoly on money printing and taxation. A government has a monopoly on the legislation. A government has far more human and financial resources than any other economic actor within its borders.

If a company goes out of business, people lose their jobs. If a government goes out of business, people lose their lives.

It is not a difference in degree, it is a difference in kind. There is a reason that economist distinguish between private firms and government.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by itopaloglu83 on Monday October 13, 2025 @08:27PM (#45574864)
Well, Apple and Chinese government are one and the same when it comes to spending billions to further their agenda, that’s why that wasn’t a good example.

Yes, they do favor their own companies and provide subsidies etc. that’s not the problem though, the problem is that they’re undercutting other companies by selling below cost thanks to those subsidies. Otherwise, we would have to call our farming subsidies the same.

I was originally trying to point out that it has always been important to keep your vital industries secure, it was very stupid of Intel and others to transfer so much technology abroad (to anyone) just to increase their margins, I think ASML did the best: You can purchase our machine, but that’s pretty much it.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by lmm on Monday October 13, 2025 @11:11PM (#45575863)
Corporate internal markets are well-known as non-free, and when a sufficiently large company is picking and choosing winners in a national economy that's also not a free market.
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by philosopher1234 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @01:52AM (#45576703)
I think this concept is an exercise in fantasy. There’s simply no such thing as a free market. Why we single out subsidy as non free is arbitrary. What activities constitute legitimate free market behavior? There’s no actual logically sound distinction. The real distinction is “what we do is free market and what our opponents do is not”
Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by lmm on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @04:02AM (#45577380)
> There’s simply no such thing as a free market. Why we single out subsidy as non free is arbitrary. What activities constitute legitimate free market behavior? There’s no actual logically sound distinction.

Sounds like a nirvana fallacy. Yes, nowhere has a perfectly free market, just as nowhere has a perfectly corruptionless justice system and railroad tracks are never perfectly parallel. But there are definitely markets that are less free than others and actions that distort markets further, and it's right to call those out.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by misja111 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @06:40AM (#45578390)
The amount of what-about-ism in this thread is amazing. No, large companies with semi-monopolies using their power to influence government organizations is not part of a free market either. But OP never claimed that it was.

The whole point is that when in some market there is some nation trying to disturb the free market mechanism in its favor, other countries can't just be naïve and stand by doing nothing. They have to counter act and this is what happend in The Netherlands.

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by MediumOwl on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @03:37AM (#45577229)
You are right. China does not really implement free market without government interaction. Then again, neither does the US or any other country for that matter.

The US used its massive state surveillance apparel to spy on essentially every country in the world, not only for diplomatic advantage, which you might argue would be fair game, but also to steal industrial secrets and promote US companies (see e.g. https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/290615/revealed-m... for France, one of their supposed allies).

Paraphrasing you:

> The US heavily subsidize their companies and have large government bureaus that strategically guide industries over long time frames. For example, the US has been on a long, intentional path to destroying all international corn producers via subsidies, dumping, etc.

The US essentially destroyed the traditional crop growing in Mexico by a combination of subsidies and free trade agreements.

It is _true_ that China does not play a fair free trade game. It is _not true_ that the US, or any other country, does. (The reasons for it should be obvious btw, free trade only works if legislation is more or less the same everywhere, otherwise it's just stupid.)

Re:Dutch government takes control of Chinese-owned chipmaker... by ta20240528 on Tuesday October 14, 2025 @03:40AM (#45577249)
> For example, the CCP has been on a long, intentional path to destroying all international solar manufacturers via subsidies, dumping, etc.

You should see what Microsoft did. Forgetting the corruption the open document format, free/subsidised licences for students is almost the same thing.

Let's rather choose a set of principles and apply them without exception?