So call what they're doing 'wrong' not 'illegal'. The remedies for those two things are very different.

Well also a lot of what they're doing to enforce laws without warrants, arresting citizens, etc is illegal.

But a lot of this won't change without "active, provocative, non-violent" resistance as Gandhi would say.

Out of curiosity, what makes "arresting citizens" illegal?

If I'm in a crowd in the presence of a number of other law breakers, why would I think that I couldn't ever be temporarily detained? I mean, yes, it shouldn't be indefinite and there shouldn't be a high bar to clear to prove actual innocence, but we have process for this. I can be arrested without much provocation at all. I then have to be charged, I have the opportunity to enter a plea, get bail, and then I get a trial. All of that can (and does) happen to people who are legitimately innocent.

> Out of curiosity, what makes "arresting citizens" illegal?

Without probable cause? The Fourth Amendment.

> shouldn't be a high bar to clear to prove actual innocence

I see that you are comfortable with a presumption of guilt so long as the burden of proof of actual innocence isn’t too rigorous, but that’s exactly backwards.

I should have said "without cause" (now edited). Brown folks are detained randomly because they don't have their papers on them and "look Mexican".

due process

As an American I don't share your views at all. If you don't learn to engage in rational discussion over basic issues, and instead choose to have emotional hyperbolic outbursts, you probably won't ever get what you want.

Might help if you specify which views you don't share? The fact that slavery etc was legal or that they were wrong or that citizens should oppose them?

It was terrible that the Democrats opposed abolishing slavery.

Which modern political party waves confederate flags?

Well it might be emotional if you're one of these people about to be sent to South Sudan

It's either right or wrong for ICE to run a dragnet through a city, cuffing everyone, checking their papers, as they hope to find someone undocumented.

Either human beings have rights and deserve due process, or they don't.

People are reduced to the point of keeping airtags on them so loved ones and their lawyers can find them because the administration wants to hide them away.

>It's either right or wrong for ICE to run a dragnet through a city, cuffing everyone, checking their papers, as they hope to find someone undocumented.

What does the fact that ICE is doing it to catch illegal matter? Because as far as I'm concerned ICE has no bearing on this. It's wrong no matter who does it or what their goals are.

Being an illegal is barely a crime. Whoops, you overstayed your visa, big fucking deal. If we are going to take issue with this sort of enforcement behavior used on such minor infractions then we need to do so on principal, because not giving a shit when it was used on drug dealers and terrorists and tax evaders and everything else that's "bad" is how we fucking got here.

ICE is just particularly egregious example. But a lot of Federal agents on the ground are participating in Midway Blitz.

You're missing the point. No agency should be behaving this way over a paperwork crime.

It's not even a crime. It's an administrative infraction.

Majority of Americans want immigration law enforced. Democracy worked last November.

I voted for it. Happy that rational Americans are now getting what we want despite the best efforts of those with poor judgment, who should never speak on policy.

> It's either right or wrong for ICE to run a dragnet through a city, cuffing everyone, checking their papers, as they hope to find someone undocumented.

That's not happening

> Either human beings have rights and deserve due process, or they don't.

Illegal immigrants are deported as quickly as the law allows in every country all around the world. Sometimes they are turned around at the airport before ever entering. Should we give all of them court dates and set them loose in the country?

Really don't understand the hyper-emotional hyperbole around this topic. Seems very astroturfed. If its not, a lot of people have lost their ability to be rational as they discuss complex issues.

> Really don't understand the hyper-emotional hyperbole around this topic.

If you can’t understand the emotion of being sent to a random country and being separated from your family, I can’t help you.

I'm not trying to be combative here; genuinely would like to see things from "the other side" here and have a rational discussion. Using some specifics, I see the following as wrong:

1. Doing mass detentions and checking papers. Of course not literally through the entirety of a city, but do you agree this happens in mass at say home depot parking lots, construction sites etc, where ICE doesn't know who exactly is here illegally, so they detain everyone and check. This vs having a specific individual in mind and going to arrest that person.

2. Sending people to countries they have no ties to. CECOT for instance, where they're imprisoned indefinitely without a specific charge.

Do you agree these have happened? If so do you think they're ok?

Nothing more rational than dismissing other viewpoints as astroturfing

> That's not happening

Yes it is [1].

[1] https://chicago.suntimes.com/immigration/2025/10/01/massive-...