> All the government programs he advocates for are just pale imitations of the vibrant communities that humans were made for and which modern society has done its best to destroy.

Humans were not made for anything, and for most of the existence of our species, there were no churches, indeed no buildings of any kind. Until ~10k years ago, with the development of agriculture and permanent settlements, humans lived in relatively small hunter-gatherer groups. These communities may indeed have been "vibrant", but they were organized around family and survival, not religion.

Contrary to your claim, churches and organized religion have been made possible by modern society, not destroyed by it. It's unclear where exactly you see the destructive causes, apart from the progress of science that has tended to undermine religious belief?

In the United States, churches are tax-exempt. In that sense, they are promoted by the government in a crucial way.

Honest question: for women, are there any churches or other religious or spiritual traditions that do not limit them or afford them a second-class status relative to other members? (This can be in terms of church elders/leadership positions or just importance in activities, speeches giving women good role models, etc). For instance Catholic traditions usually provide quite a few female role models (not least Mary) but heavily sideline women in actual church operations, whereas Protestant traditions have more equitable leadership ranks, but don't give as much space to women who are not in leadership. I am not clueful enough to discuss other traditions sadly.

It depends mostly on the denomination, sometimes on the individual church. I'm a man, so maybe I wouldn't notice it, but I've never attended a church where I got the impression that women were second-class citizens. Every church I've ever attended has had women in the pulpit, standing on stage, leading worship, running programs, wrangling volunteers, leading Bible studies, teaching kids, discipling teenagers ... and the list goes on. I've never met a church that could have survived without the women in the congregation, and if any man ever tried to treat them like second-class citizens, I think they were likely too busy running things to notice it.

That's not saying there aren't churches like what you're worried about. It's just that I've attended a pretty good mix of conservative and liberal churches over my 50+ years, and I haven't seen one.

To some of us weirdos, it actually matters whether things we repeatedly stand up and declare or sing about are true, and whether the stories we draw meaning from are factually correct, and whether values we repeatedly and publicly affiliate ourselves with are good.

And, among this admittedly weird fragment of the population, those of us who think the things churchgoers affirm and derive meaning from and value are true and good are mostly already going to church, and those of us who think they're not so true and mostly not so good shouldn't be going to church, no matter how sorry our asses.

Have you ever given a Christmas gift to someone? Or do you abstain because it requires a belief in flying reindeer?

I've given many Christmas gifts. None of them required anyone to believe in flying reindeer, Turkish bishops living at the north pole, frosty winds and frozen water in a place that never gets below 10degC or so, etc. All it requires is a tradition of exchanging gifts at that time of the year.

If giving gifts at Christmas required me to declare solemnly that I was doing it in the name of the incarnate Son of God and that the presents under the tree had actually been delivered by flying reindeer, then I wouldn't do it; I'd find some other way of being nice to the people I love that didn't require me to lie.

So, anyway, perhaps your point is that I could find a church that doesn't expect me to actually believe, or say, or sing, any of the usual churchy things, and then I could go there every week. I suppose I could. But I think all those things Christians believe are somewhat load-bearing for Christianity and suspect that going to church every week while remaining an atheist wouldn't actually get me most of the benefits that regular churchgoing is alleged to give the people who do it.

I’m not the person you replied to. I was raised catholic, but these days I don’t believe in god and think the church is a waste of time.

But i DO still celebrate christmas. Not for ME, but as an excuse to connect with family and friends. In other words, i don’t go to church and subject myself to nodding to 60 minutes of nonsense (to me). Instead I join for christmas lunch / dinner. The socializing part. The good part. If my family was not catholic then i’d just throw a nice new year’s party instead. Again - just to get everyone together.

I have a friend that celebrates Hanukkah and i’ve occasionally joined their family to celebrate as well.

What does belief in a religion have to do with participating in social events that happen to be rooted in religion?

Maybe i don’t “get it”?

> What does belief in a religion have to do with participating in social events that happen to be rooted in religion?

I'm not making that claim. I'm addressing the reverse: someone who refuses to go to church ("participating in social events ") because he doesn't believe the dogma. And so I brought up that many people have no such reservations about participating in Christmas traditions and activities.

It's the church which destroyed itself. Using its influence for political power, that gave it short term power but destroyed it long term.

And I would not agree with religion providing sense of the world. It's another coping mechanism to deal with absurdity in the world. There is a reason people fallback to religion when times get tough.

> Using its influence for political power, that gave it short term power but destroyed it long term.

I'm no fan of organised religion, but this is a pretty wild take to me. "The church" has been around for the best part of 2000 years. It's been wildly political for most if not all of that. It doesn't show much sign of disappearing any time soon.

The important part of the "church" in this context is finding a third space[0]. A church can be a reasonable third space, even for atheists. Particularly in smaller communities with limited resources. Other healthy options include hackerspaces / makerspackes (that is my third space of choice), libraries, parks, sporting events, etc.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Attending church can have negative consequences because religion promotes belief in unprovable claims, building life on a false premise: since the central claim isn’t true, the practices and rules around it may seem hollow or misleading.

Religion discourages critical thinking, consumes time and money, enforces conformity through social pressure, and expose individuals to guilt, shame, or manipulation by institutions with histories of abuse or corruption.

Not every church is associated with a large international community. My girlfriend is an avid churchgoer and her church has 46 members I believe. They aren't Catholic and not associated with a broader group. They're called "Primitive Methodist" so I guess there's a broader denominational link to other churches, but they don't get orders from anyplace above them or anything.

It sounds nice to someone like me who doesn't do any organized religious stuff, because the money and things donated there go back to their little community or for maintaining the building and things like that. I see firsthand how that kind of church drastically helps her have a sense of community in an increasingly digital-first world.

It is perfectly possible to go to church regularly and talk to no one there.

Conversely, it's perfectly impossible no never go anywhere and have meaningful relationships with your neighbors.

It's hard. I belong to an atheist-inclusive church, but I've been skipping for about a month and I'm reluctant to show up again.

Words like "community", "fellowship", "connection" are used a lot, but there's no obvious checklist for me to follow when I wake up Sunday morning feeling like a piece of shit and having no desire to inflict myself on others.

As a "believer" myself (we don't typically use that evangelical terminology but it's close enough) I can completely understand that. People should go to Church for Christ, and anything else, even "community" is a nice bonus but is not going to sustain people when pursued for its own sake, as you're experiencing.

Maybe a sport or hobby club or some other thing you're interested in where people have a specific motivation to get together, bonding and forming "community" more naturally?

Actual pieces of shit don't care. It's very likely more mental than you think. Delete facebook, join the gym, meditate, etc.

I'm an atheist, but I do wish I could go to church, or at least something like that. I've tried going to other non-religious clubs but it's not really the same. A pottery class just doesn't give that same feeling of "belonging".

The trouble is it just seems a bit too serious every time I've been. I don't believe any of it, and I can't believe anyone with intelligence could believe it either. But unlike, say, WWE-style wrestling, there are way too many people taking it far too seriously. You never hear of atrocities or stupidity happening because someone took wrestling too seriously. Are there churches that are more like wrestling?

I think the issue you're having is that taking it way too seriously is exactly what creates the feeling of belonging. There's a number of forums or clubs where one might discuss morality, myth, creation stories etc more like wrestling - fantasy roleplaying groups and fantasy writing circles often do include those themes for instance. But it's harder to feel true belonging through discussing whether your bard is an asshole for sleeping with a gold-hoarding dragon if you're 100% aware that neither bards or dragons exist.

Is there anything you do take super seriously? The environment, your job, parenting, a specific hobby or something? Something you think other people are missing out on by not experiencing? Looks like a club based on that would work better for you.

> But it's harder to feel true belonging through discussing whether your bard is an asshole for sleeping with a gold-hoarding dragon if you're 100% aware that neither bards or dragons exist.

But that's how it works at church. I've met plenty of people who go to church/mosque/temple and do all the god stuff there but then when it comes to it they're not stupid and behave like normal people in other situations. I've drunk wine with muslims, slept with Christians etc. The trouble is there will always be some people who don't get the joke and will take it seriously. Like the people who believe in the flat earth conspiracy now. It makes me really uncomfortable to enable something that can really ruin people's lives.

> Looks like a club based on that would work better for you.

Like I said, clubs aren't really the same. Probably because there's no "moral imperative" to go to a club (fake obviously but everyone plays along). Also the kind of clubs I would go to would be full of weirdos like me. My hobbies are best done solo.

Is this true? I see a lot of people on the right complaining about loneliness epidemic, so it would seem odd that people who are attending church would have this issue and it still being a problem. You hear about lots of young, right-wing men talking about this as an issue, so church is clearly not solving it for them.

This is all hearsay and anecdotal, mind you, and I admit I have not done the research here. It's not a condition I have, nor do any of my friends. I believe it's happening, but the claim of "just attend church" doesn't seem to being paying off to me.

Talk to any right-leaning young man who's actively engaged in a church community (even better if they're actually pursuing Christ, and not just chasing an abstract ideal of "community") and you won't hear very much about the "loneliness epidemic", except maybe in reference to their peers.

It may be hard to find them online in order to "talk" to them though, and of course that's the whole point :-) Selection bias at work.

I'll do you one better: start your own cult!

> All the government programs he advocates for are just pale imitations of the vibrant communities that human were made for and which modern society has done its best to destroy.

Modern leftism is essentially a reincarnated Christianity:

- "the government" is their Trinity. Just "believe" and eventually the right one will get elected and fix everything.

- legislation and regulations are their Bible.

- police (an arm of the government) are the scapegoat/substitute for our sins.

- tithing through higher taxes

- feel bad about yourself (historical racism / sexism that they keep bringing up) but turn to the light (leftist progress, signalling) and ye shall be saved

- forces of evil: those who want smaller government and personal freedom.

- prosperity gospel: welfare and fiscal recklessness because we can just turn on the money printer

- signalling: businesses are pressured to display leftist icons or slogans to signal their inclusion in the faith.

Correct, if only because, unlike actual left-wing political movements, such as anarchism, communism, or socialism, "leftism" is right of center.

church only provides meaning if you actually _believe_ the stuff the priest lectures about for 30 minutes at mass. Otherwise you get to play make-believe for 1 hour each week.

For me, church increases my blood pressure. I was forced to attend church as a child and didn’t believe any of the stuff by the time i was an older teen. Going to church feels patronizing to me, since i don’t believe any of it. And i’m bitter that i was “forced” into it by my parents. They never at ANY point asked me if I want to continue going, and I know for certain that even if i spoke up they would have ignored me. Ugh.

Anyway i’ve had good luck making friends at my local Y, through friends of friends, and occasionally work.

no