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Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:46AM (#45374257)
The word genocide has a legal definition, it’s not up for discussion or debate. What is happening in Gaza is a genocide according to genocide scholars.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by glenstein on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:54AM (#45374372)
It is perhaps important, also, for genocide scholarship to survey the ways proponents rotate through various forms of apologetics. Not that I would wish it to be the case but the last few years are rich in case studies for how people debate and communicate about genocide, and it's attempts to muddy definitional waters that make it so important to have strong scholarship and scholarly consensus.

A long way of agreeing with your point, I suppose.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by jajuuka on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:19PM (#45374778)
It definitely depends on the proximity to the genocide itself. Plenty of Americans easily call what happened with the Uyghurs in China a genocide. And if they know about, the genocide in Sudan a genocide as well. But when it comes to Israel it's a real reluctance. Will definitely be interesting to see how this time is viewed through history. It's close enough to western culture that it will likely stick around and just be something that happened in a poor country that gets forgotten.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by mrits on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:10PM (#45374646)
This is a bit off topic but there isn't anything more debated in history than legal definitions. Maybe religious scripture?

I don't think you could have raised a weaker point.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by serialNumber on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:25PM (#45374869)
Also - many many institutions have declared that what’s happening is a genocide, and unfortunately that hasn’t changed anything. (Perhaps naive of me to believe that it would change anything)
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by glenstein on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:40PM (#45375118)
I think you actually, without intending to, raise the reason why this is an exceptionally powerful point. Given the diversity of academic opinion on so many fundamental subjects, consensus on any topic is extraordinary.

I actually don't agree with you that "legal definitions" are as hotly debated or that the existence of debate in general negates consensus on specific topics. And I do think one important point with genocide scholarship is regarding muddying the waters with tom-ay-to/to-mah-to approach to definitions. Treating definitions as inherently transient is an important instrument in normalizing cultural acceptance of genocides when they're unfolding in real time, which is why that tactic is targeted by so much scholarly criticism.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by zeroonetwothree on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:05PM (#45374558)
Legal definitions are often up for discussion and debate. That’s a large part of what lawyers do, in fact.

Anyway I have no comment on the specific claim being made here, I just really dislike it when discussion is stifled by saying “I’m right and no one can ever disagree”.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:23PM (#45374847)
That's like debating the definition of homicide or rape. There is no nuance here.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by glenstein on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:56PM (#45375406)
Exactly. I think people socialized into certain conversational norms in politicized online spaces, ridiculously overestimate plausibility of the rhetorical gambit of going "gee, who's to say?" when attempted out in the wild.

I think one strength of the liberal academic tradition is that whether it's philosophy, whether it's law, you get introduced to the "whose to say" archetype early on and get inoculated against it. It's not just that the concepts are well enough established that they're resilient against such skepticism, but even in cases of uncertainty, routine amounts of conceptual uncertainty are not a deal-breaker to investigating and understanding urgent moral issues.

A real argument in the negative would be along the lines of "here's how food truck inspection policies are tied to well-established norms that better explain the outcome of famine than intent to destroy". A not real argument is spontaneous, mid-debate discovery of the transience of linguistic meaning, discovered just in time to skirt the question of genocide.

The trouble with this form of skepticism is it can only ever be hypothesized, never actually consistently embodied by real people. Long before navigating to hacker News, you would look at your computer and be paralyzed by fundamental puzzles like "what is electricity", "what is information", "is there really an external world" and so on. It wouldn't have been discovered mid conversation about genocide.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by mrits on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:46PM (#45376247)
Homicide? Like abortion? No nuance?

Rape? Like age of consent being different across regions and time? No nuance? Like how half the planet laughs when a boy gets molested by his attractive teacher and the other half calls it rape?

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:09PM (#45377464)
There is no nuance in dehumanization.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by Manuel_D on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:50PM (#45380824)
People absolutely do disagree and debate what is and is not rape, though. Legal definitions exist, but have loads of subjectivity. E.g. some argue that threatening to break up with a partner over lack of sex is coercion and thus rape.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by skinkestek on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:22PM (#45374833)
It shouldn't be.

But here we have UN and other twisting it to fit a situation that clearly weren't meant to be covered by it.

Because if the war in Gaza can be called a genocide so can almost every single other major war!

Also it is absolutely ridiculous to call a war that is started by one side, and one that only that side can end, a genocide against the same side that started it!

[dead]
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by skinkestek on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:10PM (#45375655)
Do you honestly think it is correct to use the same word that we use for the 500 000 innocents that were clubbed to death in Rwanda?

The boys that were transported by buses into the woods of Srebrenica and gunned down?

The millions that starved to death in Ukraine during Holodomor?

to use the same word for a war, ome that they can end tomorrow just by uttering a credible claim about wanting to release the hostages?

Because if Gaza is a genocide, then we must also talk about the genocide of the Germans in 1944 and 1945. But for some reason we don't call it a genocide when somebody forces someone else to stop them.

Except when that someone else is Israel.

This fits a broader pattern BTW:

Hamas executes possible the worst sexual terrorism since the rape of Nanking in 1937: not a word about war crimes.

Israel hit a legitimate target hidden in civilian hotspot: waRcRiem!

Surrounding countries have various apartheid laws: nothing to see.

Israel being a democracy where every citizen can vote, be in the government, be a judge in the Supreme Court: apArthEid!

When will people stop and look at the evidence?

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by ascorbic on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:02PM (#45377337)
> Hamas executes possible the worst sexual terrorism since the rape of Nanking in 1937: not a word about war crimes.

What are you talking about? The ICC issued an arrest warrant for war crimes for the Hamas leadership

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by komali2 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:28PM (#45381930)
Again, it's time to open your eyes, you are on the wrong side of history.

The world isn't against you, it's against what Israel is doing to Palestine. You don't have to dig your heels in.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by skinkestek on Friday September 26, 2025 @02:04AM (#45383217)
The emperor has no clothes even if he, the entire royal court and the newspapers report it.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by komali2 on Saturday September 27, 2025 @01:33PM (#45397775)
In this case you're believing the emperor. Remember the "terrorist check in list" that was just a calendar? Israeli propagandandists don't even have the respect to make up plausible lies anymore.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by Manuel_D on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:45PM (#45380779)
This is indeed a big obstacle to credibly calling the Israel-Palestine conflict a genocide. Germany lost ~10% of it's population in WW2. France lost 4% in WW1. Less than 1% of the Palestinian has been killed since Oct 7.

Heck, the US Revolutionary war saw the British perpetrated genocide against the Colonists if the military actions following Oct 7 count as a genocide.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by ragazzina on Friday September 26, 2025 @02:57AM (#45383576)
> Germany lost ~10% of it's population in WW2.

75% of those were military deaths, 25% civilian deaths. In Gaza the numbers are switched.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by Manuel_D on Friday September 26, 2025 @10:49AM (#45387165)
Even if the numbers are true, that leaves Germany with 2x the proportion of civilian deaths.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by ragazzina on Friday September 26, 2025 @02:54AM (#45383556)
In your opinion, is there a neutral organization in the world that could define whether the legal definition of genocide is being met or not?
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by khazhoux on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:33PM (#45374998)
I think the debate (/question) is whether it is Israel’s goal to eliminate the entirety of the Palestinian people. That does not seem to be the case, which is where the “not genocide” argument comes from.

Now I understand that the UN has specific criteria, etc. But the most famous genocide was the systematic execution of millions in gas chambers. This is not akin to that, is what people are arguing.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @06:27PM (#45380044)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intent_and_incitement_in_the_G...

Anyone who watches Israeli news/media in Hebrew knows that Palestinians are not considered human in the Israeli society. Israel dehumanizes and genocides the Palestinians with the intention of wiping them off the face of the earth.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by rashkov on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:59PM (#45375452)
If you're referring to the "International Association of Genocide Scholars" (IAGS), all it takes to join that organization is $30 and self identifying as a genocide scholar. Furthermore the resolution was passed with a total of 129 voting members, and about 107 voting in favor, out of over 500 total members.

Here's a letter from 514 verified scholars and legal experts calling on IAGS to retract their resolution, along with their rebuttal of the substance of the resolution:

https://www.scholarsfortruthaboutgenocide.com/

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by jameshilliard on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:56PM (#45378126)
> If you're referring to the "International Association of Genocide Scholars" (IAGS), all it takes to join that organization is $30 and self identifying as a genocide scholar.

They have certainly had some interesting members[0].

[0] https://archive.ph/J52WH

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by jewjitsu on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:03PM (#45377363)
This post struck me as surprising — labeling Israel’s defensive actions as “genocide” is not only misleading but deeply troubling, especially among users I believe to be thoughtful. I sincerely hope you are not simply parroting a narrative without reflection.

I encourage you to read more about the term genocide, and then consider the many real and ongoing atrocities happening across Asia and Africa. Investigate how authoritarian regimes—such as the one in Iran—are treating their own people. Only after that should one attempt to draw comparisons to Israel (a rare democracy in the Middle East).

What I see here is either willful ignorance, a refusal to grapple with context, or outright antisemitism.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:14PM (#45377529)
I encourage you to step outside of the Israeli echo chamber of lies and deception.

Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, UN commission of inquiry says https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8641wv0n4go

Gaza: Top independent rights probe alleges Israel committed genocide https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/09/1165856

ICC issues arrest warrants for Netanyahu, Gallant and Hamas commander https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/11/1157286

Israel is a naziesque society through and through.

Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by greenie_beans on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:34PM (#45377846)
you're responding to an IDF bot
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by Manuel_D on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:48PM (#45380807)
The definition of genocide is absolutely up for debate. And even legal definition (presumably you mean UN definition) is highly subjective, too. Less than 1% of Palestinians have been killed since Oct 7. Germany saw 10% of its population killed in WW2. France lost 4% in WW1. Why the former is a genocide but not the latter two is a pretty big hole in the logic behind the allegations of genocide.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by computerex on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:20PM (#45381889)
Any "debate" is for the courts, not a subject of debate for hacker news. People don't debate the definition of murder/rape. Genocide is a legal term.
Re:Microsoft blocks Israel's use of its tech. in mass survei... by Manuel_D on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:34PM (#45381970)
What court? Presumably you're taking about the ICJ? It only stated that allegations of genocide is "plausible". The grandparent comment is about a human rights commission, not a court.

Also, the ICJ only has jurisdiction when states consent to its authority. And the UN security council can veto any decision. It's essentially a show court.

And again, people endlessly debate what is and isn't rape and murder. Judges and juries make the decision at the end of the day, and people still debate whether their decision was correct. If anything, drawing parallels to murder and rape only serve to highlight how subjective it is.