News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Helium Browser by rjh29 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:22AM (#45370121)
Because at the time IE6 was a terrible browser with poor standards support, while Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support. It is a gilded cage.
Re:Helium Browser by Calavar on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:58AM (#45370346)
> Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support.

Google learned it can be "standards compliant" if it submits a draft spec to WHATWG/W3C, and while the comment and revision process is still ongoing, roll out that spec in Chromium and start using features in YouTube, Gmail, Google docs, and AMP. Now Firefox and Safari are forced to implement the draft specs as written by Google or users will leave in droves. Soon enough, Google's draft spec is standardized with minimal revisions because it's already out there in the wild.

The debate, revision, and multistakeholder aspects of the standards process has been effectively bypassed, a la IE6 and ActiveX, but Chrome can claim to be on the cutting edge of standards compliance.

This is a case of Goodharts's law.

Re:Helium Browser by anang on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:10AM (#45370738)
I don't mean this to doubt you, it is a sincere question. Do you have any examples of that happening? It sounds very believable, but it would be great to have actual sources for future reference.
Re:Helium Browser by rdsubhas on Thursday September 25, 2025 @08:11AM (#45371887)
QUIC. HTTP/3. WebP. And more in this comment thread.
Re:Helium Browser by Calavar on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:25PM (#45375928)
Yep, QUIC is what I was thinking about when I wrote my additional comment, but there are many examples, as others have pointed out.
Re:Helium Browser by dijit on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:23AM (#45370812)
push notifications, webgpu and webusb are examples of chrome being a reference implementation and using things for their services while simultaneously pushing the standard.

Push for mail, webgpu for maps (iirc) and I believe WebUSB is used for Android flash/debug.

Re:Helium Browser by mistercow on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:05AM (#45371464)
WebGPU is the only one of those I’ve really followed, but hasn’t that had a huge amount of input and changes due to other voices in the working group? That seems to contradict the simplistic picture painted above of Google just dictating standards to the industry.
Re:Helium Browser by dijit on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:25AM (#45371577)
Would webgpu exist at all if Chrome hadn’t just pushed through with an implementation?

Who knows.

Not us, we’ll never know.

Re:Helium Browser by pjmlp on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:40AM (#45371672)
To add insult to injury, we probably would have gotten WebGL 2.0 Compute, which was initially done by Intel, if Chrome had not refused to ship it on Chrome, arguing that WebGPU was right around the corner, and it would take too much space, this was about 5 years ago.

And to those rushing out to point out the excuse part about OpenGL on Mac not having support for compute, WebGL already back then wasn't backed up by OpenGL on all platforms, see Windows (DirectX), PlayStation (LibGNM).

Also eventually Safari also moved their WebGL implementation from OpenGL to Metal, and Chrome did as well, replace their WebGL to run on top of Metal on Mac.

So not really that much of a problem regarding the state of OpenGL on Mac as "required" implemenatation layer for WebGL.

Re:Helium Browser by mendyberger on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:21AM (#45372359)
Not true about webgpu, but true about some APIs in Google's project-fugu
Re:Helium Browser by kinlan on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:06AM (#45373557)
We had very few products that use the fugu apis., and I don't believe we were the first to ship them either in a production website.

If you're looking at fugu in particular (especially in the latter stages) we had external developers or businesses wanting the features.

Note: there are some apis that a Google customer wanted to use first.

Re:Helium Browser by mendyberger on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:16PM (#45375743)
But the other browsers objected yet Chrome still shipped them
Re:Helium Browser by troupo on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:25AM (#45371575)
Anytime you see someone on HN lamenting that Safari is the new IE because it doesn't implement something, 99.9% of the time it's Chrome-only non-standards.

- All of hardware standards. WebHID's timeline is especially egregious https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...

- Most of standards advertised on web.dev as "new exciting opportunities you can try now". E.g. WebTransport https://developer.chrome.com/docs/capabilities/web-apis/webt.... The status of that spec is "scribbled on a napkin", but somehow already released in Chrome.

- Other "standards" and "specs" here and there like web share target https://w3c.github.io/web-share-target/

Can I Use had to create a special UNOFF tag for all the web APIs that Chrome (mostly Chrome) ships. If you go to MDN and look at all APIs marked as "experimental", you'll find that most of them are already shipped in Chrome: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API

Re:Helium Browser by krageon on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:25AM (#45371578)
It happens every single time. This isn't some well kept industry secret
Re:Helium Browser by neves on Thursday September 25, 2025 @07:33AM (#45371628)
Any serious antitrust process would break it in a separate company.
Re:Helium Browser by ekianjo on Thursday September 25, 2025 @06:19PM (#45379935)
Would that change anything? If you have a separate company who owns a 90% market share browser, they can keep ignoring standards just fine
Re:Helium Browser by rjh29 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:31PM (#45379391)
If Google websites break on Safari, users will stop using Google before they stop using an iPhone. They will blame Google as well. Safari has refused to implement standards multiple times.
Re:Helium Browser by soraminazuki on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:03PM (#45381336)
Re:Helium Browser by lenkite on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:56AM (#45370334)
It is nice when you have replaced the original standard committee with your own committee. You can always have "leading standards support".

MS was not smart enough to do this. Google was smarter.

Re:Helium Browser by modo_mario on Thursday September 25, 2025 @03:52AM (#45370301)
Isn't part of the issue that they have a big hand in defining the standards?
Re:Helium Browser by glenstein on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:12AM (#45372280)
Right, and I would add: normalizing an accelerated rate of new standards adoption and vast codebases that only they can sustain.
Re:Helium Browser by pjmlp on Thursday September 25, 2025 @04:30AM (#45370524)
That is revisionism, IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition, like Chrome is today, and Microsoft withdraw most of the development resources from the team.

WPF XAML was originally designed by ex IE team members, and they were the same that a few years later proposed XAML Grid concept as CSS Grid initial design.

Many JavaScript devs have to thank their abuse of JavaScript in the browser to XMLHttpRequest introduced by IE.

Re:Helium Browser by matwood on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:06AM (#45370720)
> IE only stagnated because they kind of wipedout the competition

Yeah, people forget that IE was a great browser. It was easily the most performant, I think driven by the Outlook web (I believe the first web app to make use of XMLHttpRequest) team demanding IE team make it so. The issue, like you said, is they won and then stopped updating.

Re:Helium Browser by commakozzi on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:17AM (#45372316)
It was sad to me watching that battle unfold. Maybe i was ignorant (and maybe i still am), but I learned most of what i know about web dev on Netscape sitting in a mac lab at university viewing source code. I HATED when IE started to takeover and eventually won that first battle. I miss Netscape :-(
Re:Helium Browser by Gud on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:54PM (#45375373)
Maybe for a short period. Honestly Firefox(phoenix) was my browser of choice.

Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.

Re:Helium Browser by matwood on Friday September 26, 2025 @01:57AM (#45383167)
> Internet explorer became the dominant browser for one reason only: it came by default.

Default helped, but IE was the far superior browser for a long time. People chose to use it.

I was also a FF user and it came out a few years later than IE6. When FF came out IE6 was still the superior browser, though it was eventually overtaken by both FF and Chrome.

Re:Helium Browser by maxdo on Thursday September 25, 2025 @09:13AM (#45372281)
What do you expect from browser itself? It loads html + js . It’s no longer center of innovation.
Re:Helium Browser by recursive on Thursday September 25, 2025 @11:04AM (#45373521)
Support for PNG alpha channel
Re:Helium Browser by sixothree on Thursday September 25, 2025 @10:06AM (#45372775)
Tabs would have been a nice feature to add.
Re:Helium Browser by dudeinjapan on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:37PM (#45375081)
To Google execs, a browser is a rectangle on your screen that you click on while it delivers you ads.
Re:Helium Browser by rjh29 on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:33PM (#45379416)
Revisionism? I was around then and I implemented plenty of sites in IE. It always had bugs that other browsers did not (and there were more than two engines back then). Maddening lack of support of features that other browsers had implemented, often requiring crazy workarounds. Transparent PNGs didn't even work! Not to mention all the proprietary crap like ActiveX.
Re:Helium Browser by supermatt on Thursday September 25, 2025 @05:09AM (#45370732)
> leading standards support

"Leading" being the operative word. Ship a new feature, submit it as a standard and encourage its adoption so things only work on chrome and further increase market share when people find other browsers "broken".

MS did exactly the same shit with IE - the only really difference was that the standards body (w3c) was independent, so they couldn't self declare it as a standard. Now the "standards" body (whatwg) is mostly google...

Re:Helium Browser by shaky-carrousel on Thursday September 25, 2025 @08:00AM (#45371811)
That was quite a move from Google, replacing the independent W3C with the Google lapdog whatwg...
Re:Helium Browser by meindnoch on Thursday September 25, 2025 @06:15AM (#45371155)
>Chrome is an excellent browser with leading standards support

Yes, Chrome has leading standards™ [1] support!

_________

[1] A so-called standard™ is a piece of source code that sits on the main branch of the Chromium repository. Not to be confused with actual standards!

Re:Helium Browser by reaperducer on Thursday September 25, 2025 @08:29AM (#45371995)
leading standards support

Except no support for:

  CSS Canvas Drawings
  CSS filter() function
  Video Tracks
  Audio Tracks
  FIDO U2F API
  SPDY protocol
  JPEG XL image format
  HTTP Live Streaming
  HEIF/HEIC image format
  SVG fonts
  CSS hanging-punctuation
And broken support for:

  CSS font-smooth
  CSS Initial Letter
  Speech Recognition API
  CSS -webkit-user-drag property
  CSS3 Multiple column layout
  CSS text-indent
  Synchronous Clipboard API
  HEVC/H.265 video format
  TLS 1.1
  text-decoration styling
  CSS display: contents
  CSS Container Style Queries
  CSS clip-path property for HTML
  CSS Counter Styles
  Ruby annotation
  WAI-ARIA Accessibility features
  Media Fragments
  autocomplete attribute: on & off values
  DOMMatrix
  SVG effects for HTML
  X-Frame-Options HTTP header
  DNSSEC and DANE
  WebXR Device API
  DeviceOrientation & DeviceMotion events
  Permissions Policy
  asm.js
  Network Information API
  theme-color Meta Tag
  Document Policy
Source: https://caniuse.com

The whole "Chrome is the leader in standards" meme is a lie.

Re:Helium Browser by lima on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:12PM (#45374669)
Your copy&paste does not support your argument. Just looking at the top items on your list, it's basically a bunch of Safari-only features which no other browser vendor ships:

- CSS Canvas Drawings is not a web standard. It's a WebKit-specific feature, only Safari implements it. Chromium removed it in order to replace it with an actual web standard (CSS Painting API).

- Likewise, the CSS filter() function is Safari-only.

- U2F API has been deprecated for years, was replaced by WebAuthn, and only Safari still implements it.

- Same with SPDY, which was replaced by an actual web standard (HTTP2). Only Safari still ships it, but has marked it deprecated.

- SVG Fonts were removed from the SVG spec.

- HLS, JPEG-XL, HEIF/HEIC are essentially Safari-only as well.

CSS hanging-punctuation and audio/video tracks are new features that haven't been widely implemented yet.

Re:Helium Browser by fkyoureadthedoc on Thursday September 25, 2025 @01:03PM (#45375535)
Considering there's 2 browsers, 3 if we're being generous, basically every new feature is a bunch of X-only features that Y doesn't support.
Re:Helium Browser by al_be_back on Thursday September 25, 2025 @12:28PM (#45374929)
the IE6 lawsuit was about web browser monopoly, not a complaint for poor tech.
Re:Helium Browser by matheusmoreira on Thursday September 25, 2025 @02:22PM (#45376776)
The "standards" are now effectively controlled by Google.