Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by AuthAuth on Thursday August 21, 2025 @12:52AM
(#44969138)
Geopolitics doesnt change because someone was mean. Its all about power and influence. Isreal is key for enacting and protecting American interests in the region. Whats happening in Palestine hurts in the short term but I think average people will forget about it in a year and the US foreign policy will be business as usual. Its brutal to think about but I cant see it going any other way, most of the people upset by whats going on had never heard about gaza before oct 7th.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by nujabe on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:50AM
(#44969456)
There is absolutely nothing critical to US national security that Israel can provide the United States. When you say “protecting American interests” what you really mean is protecting Israeli interests. America has no national security interest in Israeli settlement expansion in West Bank, Gaza & southern Syria.
The intelligence Israel does provide the US is related to conflicts & terrorist groups that wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for Israel itself.
Literally all the Middle East countries host US military bases and are puppet states of the US anyway so I don’t see how Israel provides any value.
“Israel is an albatross around America’s neck” - John Mearsheimer
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by solumunus on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:47AM
(#44969428)
It’s not a mystery in my opinion. Israeli and American intelligence are heavily involved with each other. Israel knows all of America’s deepest secrets. The financial ties run deep. Israel has been injecting large quantities of capital into US politics. All of this has been happening for half a century.
It’s only a mystery if you think we pick our allies solely on the basis of whether we think they’re a goody or baddy.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by dttze on Thursday August 21, 2025 @02:09AM
(#44969553)
US ruling class are Zionists. They are all part of the same club. Doesn’t matter if it is not in the interest of the US state, only that it benefits their own interests.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by burnt-resistor on Thursday August 21, 2025 @02:54AM
(#44969843)
Sort of. There are at least two, overlapping aspects to Israel affinity: religion and money.
The Christian right are selective, fatalistic "Zionists" with magical thinking beliefs that, in their view, lasts until the apocalypse because they believe some Jews will convert and others will meet a bad end. Since they don't really care about Jews except as a means to end everything and meet Jesus, does that count as "Zionism"?
Rich, authoritarian criminals. Which is a bit redundant because "rich" suffices. Netanyahu and Trump are both in roughly similar predicaments compared to extreme examples like Putin and Kim Jong Un. They've done things to anger ordinary people but refuse to concede power for fear of prosecution or worse, and so do everything to insulate and extend their rules.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by amanaplanacanal on Wednesday August 20, 2025 @11:53PM
(#44968884)
So evidently a two state solution is off the table, and once all the Palestinians are driven away, a one state solution will become acceptable to Israel.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by tguvot on Thursday August 21, 2025 @11:00AM
(#44973633)
at some point of time there was serious fallout between PA west bank and Hamas in Gaza (you need to remember that Hamas was elected as majority party by elections in 2006 and later there was coup attempt by PLO sponsored by usa, that succeeded in west bank and failed in gaza).
As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services.
Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things".
eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers.
and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by nujabe on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:04PM
(#44975226)
You folks being disingenuous as usual. Israel did not facilitate the payments to Hamas because of some humanitarian concern for Gazans(lol), they did it specifically for the purpose of undermining the PA so Netanyahu could point to Hamas and say “see we have no partner for peace” which is exactly what he’s done. [1]
He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2]
It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by tguvot on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:19PM
(#44975451)
i won't deny that it was comfortable for bibi politically at later point of time. there was also hope that it will make hamas to behave more responsibly as they run "country" and to moderate.
but the fact remains that money transfers started because there was international pressure on Israel to do so in order to prevent "humanitarian catastrophe".
feel free to search contemporary news. it important to know history beyond recent flashy headlines.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by nujabe on Friday August 22, 2025 @03:09AM
(#44981756)
Let’s circle back, your claim is that Gaza was on the verge of humanitarian crisis, not because of Israel’s 25+ year siege, blockade and regular bombing campaigns, but because the PA stopped paying out salaries to Hamas?
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by nujabe on Friday August 22, 2025 @03:12PM
(#44988607)
Since when did Netanyahu give a flying F about what international media thinks? Your argument that Netanyahu was swayed by international pressure doesn’t hold water.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by tguvot on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:39AM
(#44969381)
Netanyahu became PM in 1996. In his role as PM he signed follow up agreements to Oslo accords and handed over to PA control more parts west bank.
As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead).
Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by jfengel on Thursday August 21, 2025 @12:32PM
(#44974756)
What does Netanyahu's version of a two-state solution look like?
I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing?
Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by tguvot on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:03PM
(#44975218)
same as was negotiated in all rounds, including clinton parameters. big settlement blocks go to israel, in land swaps (iirc like 3% or 5% of west bank). remote settlements are evacuated. PA demilitarized (as uk, france, canada, australia, etc say should be). school should stop teaching hate (unrwa teaching that one day they will come and will liberate entire israel since 50s. take a look at this the atlantic article from 1961 https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1961/10/208-4/132... )
bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by nielsbot on Thursday August 21, 2025 @01:35AM
(#44969354)
I imagine it will play out similarly to the genocide of the Native Americans: Ethnically cleansed or genocided. Any stragglers will live on reservations or the equivalent. Palestinians living under Israeli control will be subject to apartheid a la the Jim Crow South in the US.
I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by burnt-resistor on Thursday August 21, 2025 @03:04AM
(#44969905)
Long-term Palestinian refugee camps are/were essentially urban reservations. Some have existed for decades and look kind of like cities. They are/were really, really small areas with very high density. Sort of like a concentration camp too.
Re:Israel approves controversial West Bank settlement project
by burnt-resistor on Thursday August 21, 2025 @03:03AM
(#44969897)
If you think about it, a "two state solution" results in the a continuation of de facto apartheid. Israel controls identity cards, vehicle registration, and the civil registry of births and deaths. There's basically no way for Palestinians to have a complete and independent country at this point, and this is a shame and a crime that was intended.
The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/israel-strategic-liability-u...
The intelligence Israel does provide the US is related to conflicts & terrorist groups that wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for Israel itself.
Literally all the Middle East countries host US military bases and are puppet states of the US anyway so I don’t see how Israel provides any value.
“Israel is an albatross around America’s neck” - John Mearsheimer
https://youtu.be/dqeGW4G_Bmo?si=D5ZiURk4IzFRwiIN
It's pretty disgusting.
It’s only a mystery if you think we pick our allies solely on the basis of whether we think they’re a goody or baddy.
The Christian right are selective, fatalistic "Zionists" with magical thinking beliefs that, in their view, lasts until the apocalypse because they believe some Jews will convert and others will meet a bad end. Since they don't really care about Jews except as a means to end everything and meet Jesus, does that count as "Zionism"?
Rich, authoritarian criminals. Which is a bit redundant because "rich" suffices. Netanyahu and Trump are both in roughly similar predicaments compared to extreme examples like Putin and Kim Jong Un. They've done things to anger ordinary people but refuse to concede power for fear of prosecution or worse, and so do everything to insulate and extend their rules.
Yes. More specifically: Christian Zionism [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Zionism].
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7HqfqtlueI
Is there some other way this could play out?
Which is why Israel funded Hamas to weaken the PLO.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
As result of this fallout PA stopped transferring money to Gaza to pay salaries and for maintenance of all infrastructure and services.
Mainstream media across the world had headlines that "hundreds of thousands of gazans will starve to death any moment now because they can't afford to buy food because israel blocks money for salaries" and "unmaintained infrastructure will result in mass illness etc.. etc.. etcc.. because israel blocks money for fixing things".
eventually Israel folded and allowed those transfers.
and now this is known as "israel propping up hamas"
He is directly quoted by many sources saying “ anyone who wants to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support strengthening Hamas” which wholly contradicts your claims. [2]
It’s amazing to see how flat Israeli hasbara falls these days, it doesn’t hit like it used to, most people are now well informed to be gaslighted with lies.
[1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
[2] https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-border-troops-women-h...
but the fact remains that money transfers started because there was international pressure on Israel to do so in order to prevent "humanitarian catastrophe".
feel free to search contemporary news. it important to know history beyond recent flashy headlines.
This is absurd and you know it.
As i wrote, it was international media and un that claimed this. And there was international pressure on Israel
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-748435
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/knesset-overwhe...
As cabinet minister (in 2004?) he voted 4 times in favor of disengagement from gaza and removal of all jews from there (both life and dead).
Later, when he became PM again, in speech that he gave he affirmed that he supports two state solution as long as palestinian state demilitarized (something that demand now all western countries that recognize it).
I had imagined it as something like creating a country ("Palestine") in the West Bank, along the 1967 borders. But if so, what happens to the settlements that are (as TFA points out) still ongoing?
Is there supposed to be a different border? Exclaves of Israel? Or are those settlers supposed to become part of Palestine?
bibi in fact froze settlement construction once for 6 months (such freeze as precondition to negotiation never happened before. it was mess that obama created. construction inside limits of existing settlements) in order to get palestinians to negotiations table. they refused to negotiate and came to table only in last week, made no progress and left when construction was unfrozen.
this is lovely article that shows how obama killed all negotiations between israel and palestinians https://www.meforum.org/israeli-settlements-american-pressur...
I still have a slim hope that this outcome will be averted, but the odds of that lessen by the day.
The only viable, long-term, stable solution is abandonment of Zionism for a one state solution with a secular democracy that doesn't selectively enfranchise or disenfranchise people based on religious, ethnic, or racial identity. The problem right now is that millions of people are part of a cult and cult-adjacent who harbor beliefs of ethno-nationalist supremacy. History proves time and again that ethno-nationalist sentiment leads to war, murder, and genocide.
Israel approves patently illegal West Bank settlement project