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Re:LLM Inflation by djoldman on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:02AM (#44811400)
> Bob needs a new computer for his job.... In order to obtain a new work computer he has to create a 4 paragraph business case explaining why the new computer will improve his productivity.

> Bob’s manager receives 4 paragraphs of dense prose and realises from the first line that he’s going to have to read the whole thing carefully to work out what he’s being asked for and why. Instead, he copies the email into the LLM.... The 4 paragraphs are summarised as “The sender needs a new computer as his current one is old and slow and makes him unproductive.” The manager approves the request.

"LLM inflation" as a "bad" thing often reflects a "bad" system.

In the case described, the bad system is the expectation that one has to write, or is more likely to obtain a favorable result from writing, a 4 paragraph business case. Since Bob inflates his words to fill 4 paragraphs and the manager deflates them to summarise, it's clear that the 4 paragraph expectation/incentive is the "bad" thing here.

This phenomenon of assigning the cause of "bad" things to LLMs is pretty rife.

In fact, one could say that the LLM is optimizing given the system requirement: it's a lot easier to get around this bad framework.

Re:LLM Inflation by Aransentin on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:17AM (#44811571)
The 4-paragraph business case was useful for creating friction, which meant that if you couldn't be bothered to write 4 paragraphs you very likely didn't need the computer upgrade in the first place.

This might have been a genuinely useful system, something which broke down with the existence of LLMs.

Re:LLM Inflation by ryanmcbride on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @12:13PM (#44814003)
This is the sort of workplace philosophising that I hate the most. Employees aren't children. They don't need to have artificial bullshit put up in between them and what they need, the person approving just needs to actually pay attention.

If someone wants a new computer they should just have to say why. And if it's a good reason, give it to them. If not, don't. Managers have to manage. They have to do their jobs. I'm a manager and I do my job by listening to the people I manage. I don't put them through humiliation rituals to get new equipment.

Re:LLM Inflation by ozim on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:00PM (#44814638)
Sounds like you did not work all that much.

People want new computer because new hire Peter got a new one.

People want new computer because they just had lunch with a friend that works in a different company and got a new computer and they just need to one up him next time they go to lunch.

That is why I am not going to just give people computers because they ask. Worst crybabies come back because they „spilled coffee” on perfectly fine 2 years old laptop.

Re:LLM Inflation by ctoth on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:27PM (#44814965)
Wooo I used to think this was how managers work and just ... Was inevitable. I'm so glad to actually be a manager now, because no, it's not. You don't call people who spill coffee, (have you never spilled anything?) crybabies. This is a bad manager.
Re:LLM Inflation by ozim on Thursday August 07, 2025 @01:45AM (#44821008)
I don’t call them like that it is just a goof to make comment more interesting.

Not everything you read on the internet is 1 to 1 real life ;)

Re:LLM Inflation by ryanmcbride on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:16PM (#44814818)
reread the comment you're responding to because I don't think you read it all the way. Specifically this part:

>If someone wants a new computer they should just have to say why. And if it's a good reason, give it to them. If not, don't.

Re:LLM Inflation by ozim on Thursday August 07, 2025 @01:43AM (#44820993)
People make up reasons, no one comes in saying „Peter has a new laptop I want one as well”.
Re:LLM Inflation by ryanmcbride on Thursday August 07, 2025 @04:25PM (#44829888)
Yes and your job as a manager is to determine whether or not the reason is valid. And it'll be easier to do that if you ask for a 1 sentence explanation instead of 4 paragraphs.
Re:LLM Inflation by watwut on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:36PM (#44815102)
4 paragraph essay wont solve issue with Peter having better computer. Competitive person will write it and make up a reasons.

If you are awarding computers based on 3 paragraph essays, you are having horribly inefficient process that rewards creative writing rather then work.

Which is why none of it happen in real companies, unless they are someones startup expected to fail anyway.

Re:LLM Inflation by nemomarx on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:47PM (#44815257)
I can say when I wanted to move my desk from one place to another I had to write up the "business justification" (I was already working from both offices on different days and still am, it was a change on paper)

so I'm sure there's large corps that do this for everything. probably ones where you're not asking your manager, but asking finance or IT for everything

Re:LLM Inflation by MontyCarloHall on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:48AM (#44812004)
The only definitively non-renewable resource is time. Time is often spent like a currency, whose monetary instrument is some tangible proxy of how much time elapsed. Verbosity was an excellent proxy, at least prior to the advent of generative AI. As you said, the reason Bob needs to write 4 paragraphs to get a new PC is to prove that he spent the requisite time for that computer, and is thus serious about the request. It’s the same reason management consultants and investment bankers spend 80+ hours a week working on enormous slide decks that only ever get skimmed by their clients: it proves to the clients that the firm spent time on them, and is thus serious about the case/deal. It’s also the same reason a concise thank-you note “thanks for the invite! we had a blast!” or a concise condolence note “very sorry for your loss” get a lot less well-received than a couple verbose paragraphs on how great the event was or how much the deceased will be missed, even if all that extra verbiage confers absolutely nothing beyond the core sentiment. (The very best notes, of course, use their extra words to convey something personally meaningful beyond “thanks” or “sorry.”)

Gen-AI completely negates meaningless verbosity as a proxy of time spent. It will be interesting to see what emerges as a new proxy, since time-as-currency is extremely engrained into the fabric of human social interactions.

Re:LLM Inflation by protonbob on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:56PM (#44815383)
A proof of time spent cryptocurrency is the only way I can see a way out of this.
Re:LLM Inflation by spencerflem on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:16PM (#44815631)
I think requiring in-person physical interactions is more likely
Re:LLM Inflation by protonbob on Thursday August 07, 2025 @02:49PM (#44828772)
This was obviously a joke
Re:LLM Inflation by spencerflem on Thursday August 07, 2025 @05:07PM (#44830375)
Hah sorry, you got me then :p
Re:LLM Inflation by nine_k on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:28PM (#44815775)
There's an important asymmetry here: it takes a lot of to weave an intricate pattern, but much less time to assess and even appreciate it. The sender / suitor pays significantly more than the receiver / decider.

There are some parallels to that in compression and cryptography, but they are rather far-fetched.

Re:LLM Inflation by naveen99 on Thursday August 07, 2025 @07:50AM (#44823274)
Just stuff some cash inside the greeting card instead of time as a proof of burn.
Re:LLM Inflation by handoflixue on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:46AM (#44811969)
The problem is, I'm a verbose writer and can trivially churn out 4 paragraphs - another person is going to struggle. The friction is targeting the wrong area: this is a 15 minute break for me, and an hour long nightmare for my dyslexic co-worker.

Social media will give you a good idea what sort of person enjoys writing 4 paragraphs when something goes wrong; do you really want to incentivize that?

Re:LLM Inflation by fmbb on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:25PM (#44815739)
I mean it’s all up to the employer if they want employees to be productive.

If they don’t care they don’t care. They pay most of us for our time anyway, not what we achieve.

Re:LLM Inflation by hdgvhicv on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:14AM (#44811530)
The broken thing here is that Bob, costing $10k a week, is after a new computer costing $100 a week.
Re:LLM Inflation by neutronicus on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @11:08AM (#44813050)
If Bob's job is anything like mine, Bob's new computer will take a week to set up
Re:LLM Inflation by ryanmcbride on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @12:15PM (#44814027)
Sounds like your company needs to spend some time working on their onboarding process. Probably more effective than just hoping no one ever needs a new computer.
Re:LLM Inflation by dizlexic on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @11:19AM (#44813209)
this is the biggest deterrent to me requesting a new computer at work.
Re:LLM Inflation by libraryatnight on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @01:27PM (#44814981)
I used to get hype for laptop refresh days, but I'll ignore them now if my stuffs working fine just to spare myself the nuisance.
Re:LLM Inflation by zamadatix on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @10:28AM (#44812506)
Whether it's an additional $100/week for base salary or $100/week for overhead Bob is always going to be after another $100/week regardless what his current cost is. If Bob wants to manage the overheads directly (most don't) like salary costs then he probably wants more of a contractor type position.

As to the content of the letter, the 4 paragraphs are supposed to be "these are reasons I think were missed and why it'll cost more to not correct it" not just "I put effort to write 4 paragraphs of stuff" friction alone.

Having run a short stint as an internal IT manager at an IT focused company... it's astounding how many non-standard/out-of-cycle laptop request are actually either basic user error (even for the most brilliant technical employees) or basic IT systems problems (e.g. poorly tested management/security tool changes eating up performance/battery in certain configurations) that a new laptop won't actually solve. E.g. reports of "my battery runs out in 2 hours and my IM is dog slow" but they are on an M1/M2 MacBook Pro and probably wouldn't notice if they got an M1 or M4 MacBook back as their issue isn't actually the hardware. When someone writes an email or ticket explaining why their use case just wasn't accounted for it's generally pretty obvious they really do need something different.

Re:LLM Inflation by kelipso on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:57AM (#44812112)
This part I always found funny. Significantly increase productivity of the team for a fraction of the price of employing them? Absolutely not.
Re:LLM Inflation by jermaustin1 on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @10:32AM (#44812571)
I'm a consultant, and have been for 20 years now (except for a 2 year stint as an employee for the benefits and relocation assistance to move my family from Texas to NYC).

At the NYC employment job, I was on a 2 year upgrade cycle being a software developer. Just whatever the current year Dell corpo laptop was. No procurement procedures, just IT got 2 year replacements, our laptops went to the non IT workforce after reimaging.

As a consultant I usually bring my own device, and my laptops are usually WAY more capable since I will run each client on their own VM - makes it easy to delete the client when the contract is up. But I've had one client who did not allow BYOD, and any billed work had to be done on their hardware. That was fine, except that the desktop I was given was already a 12 year old dual core non-hyperthreading CPU that wasn't meant for developers even when it was built. I begged and pleaded for 6+ months for me to either bring in my own hardware they could image now and wipe at the end of the contract, or to please buy me a PC from this decade.

It took 3 years to get the budget approval for a $2000 tower, roughly the equivalent of 15 hours of pay. The thing that finally pushed it over the edge, was that my PC could not handle Teams + Visual Studio at the same time, and manager couldn't handle that he couldn't watch me program.

All of that to say I doubt these non-data-driven organizations are basing these decisions on anything other than micromanagement. Nothing to do with measured or assumed productivity, nothing to do with costs, so all I can think is they have to be a "decision maker" on all aspects.

Re:LLM Inflation by AlecSchueler on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:47PM (#44816004)
I never understood why no company I worked at could hire someone just to manage the kitchen instead of paying engineers massive salaries to argue about unloading the dishwasher.
Re:LLM Inflation by ToucanLoucan on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @09:57AM (#44812123)
> In fact, one could say that the LLM is optimizing given the system requirement: it's a lot easier to get around this bad framework.

Sure, as long as we completely disregard the water, power and silicon wasted to accomplish this goal.

Re:LLM Inflation by patcon on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:04PM (#44815489)
I love this article for how it gets the thinking, and I love your response.

I've been aware of similar dynamic in politics, where the collective action/intelligence of the internet destroyed all the old signals politicians used to rely on. Emails don't mean anything like letters used to mean. Even phone calls are automated now. Your words and experience matter more in a statistical big data sense, rather than individually.

---

This puts me in sci-fi world-building mode, wondering what the absurd extension is... maybe it's just proving burned time investment. So maybe in an imagined world where LLMs are available to all as extensions of thought via neural implant, you can't be taken seriously for even the simplest direct statements unless you prove your mind sat and did nothing (aka wasted it's time) for some arbitrary period of time. So if you sat in the corner and registered inactive boredom for 2h, and attached a non-renewable proof of that to a written word, then people would take your perspective seriously, because you expended (though not "gave") your limited attention/time to the request for some significant amount of time

Re:LLM Inflation by djoldman on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @03:16PM (#44816398)
Politics is the OG bad system.

Because politicians literally write the rules of the system, it's incredibly difficult to prevent abuse, bad incentives, and inefficiency.

One of the most fundamentally broken aspects of the US system is that:

1. politicians stay in power by being elected.

2. people are not required to vote and casting a vote incurs a cost (time, travel, expense), therefore not everyone votes.

3. politicians just have to get the votes of the fraction of people who actually do vote and can ignore those who don't.

Re:LLM Inflation by antisthenes on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @05:14PM (#44817942)
Politicians are just an extension of the ruling class. Under capitalism, that is large capitalists.

What may seem like abuse and bad incentives to YOU are perfectly aligned goals for THEM.

Re:LLM Inflation by Xss3 on Thursday August 07, 2025 @10:21AM (#44824808)
We could fix those issues and create some new ones with direct democracy via blockchain voting.

Want a bandaid for people voting randomly? Throw in a randomly (llm?) generated question about the policy they're voting on and if they get it correct, showing some rudimentary understanding of the policy, they can vote.

Re:LLM Inflation by spencerflem on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @02:14PM (#44815610)
There's a 1992 modern art piece that was a blank canvas that the artist promised they spent 1000 hours staring directly at

https://www.mirandawhall.space/1000-hours-of-staring/

Re:LLM Inflation by jdubs1984 on Wednesday August 06, 2025 @07:06PM (#44818879)
> Bob’s manager receives 4 paragraphs of dense prose and realises from the first line that he’s going to have to read the whole thing carefully to work out what he’s being asked for and why. Instead, he copies the email into the LLM.... The 4 paragraphs are summarised as “The sender needs a new computer as his current one is old and slow and makes him unproductive.” The manager approves the request.

Bob’s manager is lazy and or an idiot.

Probably both.