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Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by ergonaught on Friday July 18, 2025 @08:15PM (#44611292)
All societies are consensus realities wholly dependent upon participation.

The system was fine but no one has yet constructed a system that can withstand weaponized mass stupidity. Even the ones created to combat corruption fail to account for this danger.

So.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by echelon on Saturday July 19, 2025 @01:46AM (#44612892)
Weaponized social media. That's what wasn't predicted.
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by wyldfire on Saturday July 19, 2025 @01:57AM (#44612941)
Maybe the abnormal thing was the century or so we had of papers/radio/TV guided by ethics or professionalism or some delicate trustworthiness-equilibrium.

And now we have returned to a state where humanity is guided by inventive stories and manipulated by propaganda.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by pfannkuchen on Saturday July 19, 2025 @02:17AM (#44613028)
This implies that the period with massively more centralized control of information had a truer consensus reality.

That seems… unlikely?

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by beezlewax on Saturday July 19, 2025 @04:12AM (#44613566)
It was better than the illusion of freedom of information a lot of people have now. In reality mass manipulation is happening on a global scale at unprecedented levels.
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by neltnerb on Saturday July 19, 2025 @02:23AM (#44613058)
At least they mostly felt the need to pick a single consensus reality to approximate. How well it represented common experience, well...
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by maxerickson on Saturday July 19, 2025 @12:52PM (#44617119)
It wasn't that centralized (many many independent newspapers and such).

And then "information" is doing a lot of work when you start talking about social media.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by oblio on Saturday July 19, 2025 @03:18AM (#44613293)
You know what the weirdest thing about that century is? The Soviets.

A sort of seemingly valid communal society seemed possible so all the other capitalism based ones had competition and as a result were trying to improve the life of citizens.

I'm starting to become more and more convinced that as real fear of Communism disappeared at the top, our systems are regressing to the mean.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by amelius on Saturday July 19, 2025 @04:58AM (#44613781)
It wasn't predicted because freedom of speech is generally considered a good thing so its darker aspects were never considered.

Same reason adtech has free reign to bring down society.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by a_bonobo on Saturday July 19, 2025 @02:09AM (#44612985)
Germany has learned this lesson the hard way, with a 'defensive' constitution post-1945. You don't have 100% free speech in Germany, and it is possible to make parties illegal. It's not without its issues (currently, the far-right AfD might be banned using these laws but the whole system has been dragging its feet) but it is a lesson the US should have learned after the first Trump term.

Democracies by default assumed that all players in the system are supportive of the system itself, kind of like all early Internet protocols assumed that there are no malicious users.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by roenxi on Saturday July 19, 2025 @02:55AM (#44613200)
They didn't "learn this lesson", they had a constitution imposed on them and were basically occupied for 50 years by multiple foreign powers; even up until 2020 as I recall there were about as many active US army personnel in Germany as German ones. There isn't a hugely compelling story that the constitution is the big factor in the German journey.

It isn't possible to build a paper system that consistently resists an incompetent elite and the people deciding to re-roll the dice on a new system because the current one isn't working. Corruption creeps in and people stop following the official rules.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by triknomeister on Saturday July 19, 2025 @03:12AM (#44613273)
Germans have this false belief that if you just create the correct laws, people will follow them and system would be good. When in reality, for most people around the world, they follow laws only till it makes sense for them.
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by pjmlp on Saturday July 19, 2025 @06:14AM (#44614157)
This belief is stronger in Switzerland and Scandinavian countries, based on my experience.
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by impossiblefork on Saturday July 19, 2025 @05:10AM (#44613836)
It's also worth noting that the mainstream German parties have actually supported ethnic cleansing abroad, in Nagorno-Karabach, etc. while the AfD opposed those things, so I don't think it's very clear cut that AfD is the dangerous party.

Personally I find the political inclinations of the German mainstream parties to be what appears to be dangerous, since what they're doing actually led to a large number of deaths and a large number of people being displaced, to the loss of sovereignty and to the expansion of a dictatorship.

I see very little difference between Aliyev and Hitler, and he is still tolerated (in fact, my perception of Azerbaijani hate attitudes is that they're actually more extreme that the Nazi hate attitudes, i.e. simply going further, the systematic teaching of this hatred to even younger children that the Nazis primarily targeted, etc.).

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by the_why_of_y on Saturday July 19, 2025 @06:02AM (#44614097)
The thousands of peace-keeping troops in Armenia/Azerbaijan that looked the other way were not German, but Russian. By the way, both Russia and Armenia are members of the CSTO military alliance[1], while Azerbaijan is not.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Org...

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by impossiblefork on Saturday July 19, 2025 @06:41AM (#44614312)
Yes, I know that the Russians looked the other way.

However, Baerbock has absolutely monstrous statements and the German gas-guzzling contingent are the obvious culprits for the EU partership agreements with Azerbaijan and for the incorrect statements treating this whole thing as somehow restoring Azerbaijani territorial integrity and the numerous statements by the EC falsely claiming that Armenia had attacked Azerbaijani (i.e. these 'we call on both sides...' in the aftermath of Azerbaijani attacks). Furthermore, it is German influence on the EC that made the implementation of the ICJ decision subject to negotiation, and it is likely German influence on the EC that forced the agreement whereby mine maps were exchanged for the release of PoWs. These mine maps naturally enabled further Azeri attacks. It is also very apparent that there was government influence on media organizations to not report the starvation in the NKAO beginning after the Azeri blocking of the Lachin corridor-- for example in Sweden state television reported nothing, and reported of the ethnic cleansing itself only that 'Armenian separatists have agreed to leave Azerbaijan'. This shows co-ordination between Swedish government, Swedish state television (SVT) and Turkey or Azerbaijan, indicating a secret deal either for the sake the Swedish NATO entry or on the EU level. Certain phrases 'lightning offensive' which sound decidedly Turkish are also repeated in many newspaper articles, indicating a larger deal rather than something specific to Sweden.

The CSTO is absolutely irrelevant, as everybody who matters in any way knows completely. France would not be selling weapons to Armenia if they believed that their CSTO membership were relevant.

There were excellent opportunities to intervene even as the Azeri troops were rolling down the Agdam road to Stepanakert, and it's very unlikely that the Germans were unaware. SAR satellite imagery of the region is so readily available that unclassified images can be obtained on a commercial basis and I'm not even sure it was cloudy.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by Tainnor on Saturday July 19, 2025 @07:17AM (#44614509)
> were basically occupied for 50 years by multiple foreign powers

what a bunch of nonsense

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by triknomeister on Saturday July 19, 2025 @03:06AM (#44613248)
Germany has the same fundamental problems. Just the symptoms are different. Look at debt brake etc. And the banning at this point is just not politically possible. It is just a legal fantasy. Over a long term, laws can only reflect the politics.

Germans believe that legalities can ensure politics be conducted in a "desired" manner when the reality is, it just causes more and more factions of the politics to be done outside the legal framework. Politics is like time, it stops for no man and no law.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by tremon on Saturday July 19, 2025 @04:41AM (#44613699)
the far-right AfD might be banned using these laws but the whole system has been dragging its feet

How is this any different than how in the US, the far-right insurrectionist that orchestrated Jan6 should have been banned from pursuing public office but the whole system had been dragging its feet? It sounds nice in theory, but as long as there is no active interest in wielding that lawful power, it really is just a piece of paper.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by latexr on Saturday July 19, 2025 @05:28AM (#44613916)
> You don't have 100% free speech in Germany

You don’t have it in the USA, either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_Unite...

Does any country?

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by kergonath on Saturday July 19, 2025 @05:42AM (#44613990)
> Does any country?

No, and for good reasons. Even in a utopian liberal democracy, fundamental rights cannot be used to deprive someone else of their own fundamental rights. You cannot have freedom for all without limitations to that freedom.

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by latexr on Saturday July 19, 2025 @05:54AM (#44614050)
Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by throwawayqqq11 on Monday July 21, 2025 @02:30AM (#44632316)
Since one might read this and concludes "tolerance is impossible.". You cannot tolerate intolerance, thats the contradiction here and not tolerating intolerance is a fairly easy escape out of the dilemma, at least for me.

Edit: This dilemma arises whenever your ideal is dependent on the cooperation of others. Pacifism is another example. So you cant uphold your pacifistic ideal in the case of being attacked. Or you might loose the option to enforce peace when it only depends on you cooperating, upholding it. This is a perspective many people rejecting ukranian aid dont consider (but are eager to push out nazis because they are intolerant).

Re:EPA says it will eliminate its scientific reseach arm by throwawayqqq11 on Saturday July 19, 2025 @05:51AM (#44614029)
The civic consens could only be undermined because people lack the contextual knowledge and (self) critical reasoning to not be vulnerable.

Germany tried to solve that problem by creating an extra-governmental body tasked with public broadcasting, with budget autonomy (collects its own pseudo tax) and supposed political independence.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Öffentlich-rechtlicher_Rundf...

But this falls short too. There are many positions occupied by people with political party affiliation and cases of corruption/embezzlement.

And the cherry on top are the austerity hawks chipping away at the school system for many decades now. The german school system is slowly collapsing, with state represantatives even boykotting a federal conference because their problems had been ignored for so long.

https://taz.de/Laender-boykottieren-den-Bildungsgipfel/!5918...

Limiting freedom of speech can be helpful in delicate, small scale cases but becomes unenforcable when the dipshit echo chambers grow and the overton window moves.

Germany has the same route ahead as the USA. I am certain :(