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Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @12:21PM (#44405877)
> People were already living there when settlers came to create an ethno-state for themselves

Including a sizeable Jewish minority.

The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region. But it’s a continuation of outsiders (in particular Westerners, though the Iranians also bought this settler-colonialist nonsense which led to their recent miscalculations) with no connection to the land drawing up broad moral claims for how the Middle East should be divided up.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by Newtonip on Saturday June 28, 2025 @12:51PM (#44406150)
> Including a sizeable Jewish minority.

There was a Jewish community in Palestine (mostly centered around Jerusalem) but they did not come up with the Zionist project. Actually, many were opposed and some of their descendants still do so to this day.

> The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region

The (European) architects of the Zionist project literally called it colonialism.

"You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews … How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial." -Theodor Herzl

Ze'ev Jabotinsky literally compared the Zionist project to other colonial projects when arguing the people living there would fight back against their colonizers and the need for numbers and strength to counter them.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by YZF on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:31PM (#44406492)
Herzl's choice of words in his 1902 letter to Cecil Rhodes is barely relevant to the current day reality. We can debate why Herzl chose a certain language and what it meant but the only thing that's certain is that this snippet is used to support a certain narrative and the image invoked by this narrative is completely false.

The Jewish connection to Israel or Zion is fundamental. It is part of Jewish identity. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zion

"The Jewish longing for Zion, starting with the deportation and enslavement of Jews during the Babylonian captivity, was adopted as a metaphor by Christian black slaves in the United States.[citation needed][year needed] Thus, Zion symbolizes a longing by wandering peoples for a safe homeland. This could be an actual place such as Ethiopia for Rastafari or Israel for the Jews. Rastafari, while not identifying as "Jews", identify themselves and Africa as Zion. Specifically, Ethiopia is acknowledged as the mountains of Zion. Further, Rastafari ontology views all Africans as God's Chosen People. This differs from Judaic narratives.[22]"

We also shouldn't forget pre 1948 proportions of Arabs vs. Jews was partly a result of ethnic cleansing of Jews from the area. Hebron, Jerusalem, Gaza, Safed and others used to have a lot more Jewish people:

https://www.fondapol.org/en/study/pogroms-in-palestine-befor...

The other thing we shouldn't forget is the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people from the rest of the middle east, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, Syria all used to have large Jewish communities. Not only were they mostly expelled under violence or the threat of violence, after lives under discrimination for centuries, they were also robbed of their land and possessions. Typical treatment of Jewish people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_...

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by Yeul on Saturday June 28, 2025 @04:00PM (#44407685)
There are a lot of Jews that have built their lives in Western countries and are not keen on joining a ultra orthodox ethno state.

Always good to remember that most Jews aren't religious crazies- although the crazies breed faster unfortunately.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by YZF on Saturday June 28, 2025 @08:01PM (#44409204)
And history tells us that at some point those Jews are going to be a target. Other than the anomaly of the last 50 years or so. It wasn't that long ago that Jews in the US could not be members of golf clubs or were otherwise discriminated against. Antisemitism is on the rise again. If you think you can somehow magically decouple Jewish existence from Zion/Israel then think again. I've also built my life in a western country and antisemitism runs deep below the surface. Up until recently expressing that was frowned upon but seems that's changing.

I mean we know you guys run the media, control the money, run the US government, and fire space lasers from Mars. It's all fun and game until they burn your house and worse.

I'm also worried about Israel in many ways (re: ultra-orthodox ethno state) but if you think that living in Christian states or states of other ethnicity is somehow safer I'm not too sure about that. Even the European Jews that thought they were just Europeans found out they're not. And that story has repeated throughout history. To me a successful, democratic, moral, and Jewish, Israel is important part of the future of the Jewish people. And I'm not going to join the mob that wants it destroyed.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:14PM (#44406353)
> Ze'ev Jabotinsky literally compared the Zionist project to other colonial projects

The Zionist Project is comparable to colonialism. That doesn’t make it settler-colonialism. (And Jabotinsky isn’t the final word on anything other than himself.)

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by slt2021 on Saturday June 28, 2025 @03:07PM (#44407281)
Jabotinsky is literally jewish nazi, the follower of Mussolini ideals and learned everything from him.
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @03:11PM (#44407316)
Sure. I can find terrible people opining on the case for a Palestinian state, too. That isn’t really an argument about what it is.
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by alfiedotwtf on Saturday June 28, 2025 @08:34PM (#44409360)
The whole notion of settling outside borders is marketing for annexation but has total support from Western Governments, yet those same governments are absolutely against the annexation of Ukraine.

… fuck I hate politics :(

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by immibis on Tuesday July 01, 2025 @03:57AM (#44431644)
There's a class of people who don't actually have moral principles but pretend to in order to justify selfishness. Their stated principles can turn on a dime because they don't actually believe them. Almost all politicians are in this group.
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by tdeck on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:41PM (#44406603)
> The ethnic cleansing/settler-colonialist paradigm is easy for outsiders to project on the region.

"Outsiders" like the Palestine Jewish Colonization Association that funded Zionist settlement in Palestine? The problem with folks who try to claim that this is ahistorical is that contemporary Zionists talked all the time about colonizing Palestine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Jewish_Colonizatio...

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by erikerikson on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:07PM (#44406309)
> how the Middle East should be divided up

Given how every group claims it is a holy place, I'd expect each group would want it held in a state of peace, prosperity, and reverence for the benefits of creation. Instead they all seem bent on holding their holy lands in states of violence, discord, and waste.

You're not wrong that there is deep external interference but wouldn't holy peoples rise above any of that to do better from every side?

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by cenamus on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:04PM (#44406282)
Some people seem to have the idea that most of the people are European Jews, when in reality, it was more Arab jews, in large part due to the Nazis. The standardized language even reflects this, closet to the local pronounciation of hebrew than the "accents" in Europe. Or even Jiddish
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by pphysch on Saturday June 28, 2025 @12:32PM (#44405984)
There's plenty of videos of orthodox Jewish people getting brutalized in public by Israeli government thugs. There are many Jewish voices that oppose the genocide. Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism, even though the latter uses the former cynically as a "human shield".
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @12:41PM (#44406064)
> Please don't conflate Judaism with a violent project of political extremism

I’m not. I’m arguing that one can oppose what’s happening in Gaza without careening into counterproductiveness and calling for the destruction of Israel.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by pphysch on Saturday June 28, 2025 @12:50PM (#44406139)
A state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere. In fact, it appears to be the opposite, based on historical fact. There are also Jewish communities that live peacefully with dignity in Iran.
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by nathanlied on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:15PM (#44406365)
There are Jewish communities within Iran, yes. But peacefully?

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/iran/2025-06-27/ty-... (archive: https://archive.is/0qEg9)

One could blame this crackdown on Israel, sure. But that absolves the countries perpetuating persecution of Jews from their own share of responsibility in it. After all, when the American Government interned all those Japanese-Americans - did we blame Japan for it, or did we rightfully blame the American government?

I do not seek to defend Israel's actions against the Palestinian people, but to say that the Jews live "peacefully and with dignity" in places where they often are scapegoated, persecuted, and killed out of hand is not the way. Look at what happened to the Jewish populations of the region between the 40s and now, and you will see a grim picture of persecution, killings, and exodus.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by cultofmetatron on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:32PM (#44406509)
nettanyahu has tried to bribe iranian jews to come to israel. they've chosen not to so I can't imagine its that bad for them there. additionally, iranian jews have positionsof power in government and mandated representation. it would be a very easy argument to make that iranian jews in iran are treated much better than non jewish palestinians have ever been treated in israel.
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by breppp on Saturday June 28, 2025 @02:55PM (#44407178)
While most Iranian Jews left Iran and are currently in Israel, 200k compared to 9k left in Iran, so the numbers don't really support your statement
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by ffin on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:52PM (#44406697)
source?
Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by cultofmetatron on Saturday June 28, 2025 @02:18PM (#44406895)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Jews

" In July 2007, Iran's Jewish community rejected financial emigration incentives to leave Iran. Offers ranging from 5,000 to 30,000 British pounds, financed by a wealthy expatriate Jew with the support of the Israeli government, were turned down by Iran's Jewish leaders.[90][106][107] To place the incentives in perspective, the sums offered were up to 3 times or more than the average annual income for an Iranian.[108] However, in late 2007 at least forty Iranian Jews accepted financial incentives offered by Jewish charities for immigrating to Israel.[109]"

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by slt2021 on Saturday June 28, 2025 @03:10PM (#44407314)
Israel literally bombed their own jews in Iraq to force them to relocate to israel

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950%E2%80%931951_Baghdad_bo...

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @03:13PM (#44407334)
“Those who assign responsibility for the bombings to an Israeli or Iraqi Zionist underground movement suggest the motive was to encourage Iraqi Jews to immigrate to Israel.”

You’re stating a supposition as a fact.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by breppp on Saturday June 28, 2025 @02:53PM (#44407151)
> A state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere. In fact, it appears to be the opposite, based on historical fact

That's not my take from 2000 years of Jewish prosecution, in muslim countries or europe

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by edanm on Saturday June 28, 2025 @01:08PM (#44406310)
> A state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere. In fact, it appears to be the opposite, based on historical fact.

Whatever else you think, this is some massive misunderstanding of history.

Historically, the lack of a state for Jews was one of the main reasons Jews experienced the Holocaust, which originated the term Genocide. Half of the Jewish population, making up (iirc) 90% of the population of Europe, died, because they had nowhere else to go.

And of the ones that survived, they still had nowhere else to go, no one wanted to take them in. The only place they could go, and what was agreed to worldwide, was to go to then-Palestine. Then, the hundreds of thousands of Jews "living peacefully" in Arab countries were ethnically cleansed from their countries, which they'd lived in for generations, and also largely had nowhere to go except Palestine.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday June 28, 2025 @04:40PM (#44407996)
> state named "Israel" is not a prerequisite for Jewish people to live peacefully anywhere

Sort of irrelevant. The state of Israel exists. Israelis who call that land their home exist.

Those calling for the destruction of Israel are advocating for a holy war in the Levant. A war that would lead to hundreds of thousands if not millions of casualties.

Re:IDF Soldiers Confess: Ordered to Shoot Unarmed Gazans at ... by volleyball on Saturday June 28, 2025 @04:47PM (#44408040)
In 1920 (the year when British took over Palestine from the Ottomans) the jewish population was less than 10% Jewish and represented less than 1% of global Jewry. By 1948, after the British flooded in Jewish migrants mainly from Europe and the Americas, the population became about ~65% + arab and 35+% Jewish. Zionism was always predicated on Ethnic cleansing from the start and the founders of zionists were always aware of that fact.

“We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country.” - Theodore Herzl , Father of Zionism in 1895.

"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement]. I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it." - David Ben Gurion, Father of Israel.

"the world has become accustomed to the idea of mass migrations and has become fond of them. … Hitler – as odious as he is to us – has given this idea a good name in the world." - Ze’ev Jabotinsky, Founder of Revisionist Zionism, 1940.

Zionism is textbook settler-colonialism. I dont see it worth even arguing the point.