When there is a huge government bureaucracy that is devoted to writing and implementing “efficiency standards”, then I question the value of the expense.
Y’all do realize that other countries with energy efficient appliances don’t have this program, right?
(It’s almost like it isn’t necessary to achieve the same outcome.)
Having failed to demonstrate convincingly how this greatly imconveniences the American household as consumer, you pivot to the inconvenience of the American household as taxpayer. But any serious discussion of that point requires you to discuss the concrete cost of this certification program compared to all other government services. This, you also do not do.
As for other countries not having this program, what do you think the purpose of the "EU energy label program" is?
My argument is not about dishwashers. It's not about specific buttons. It's that removal of this particular government bureaucracy is unlikely to lead to any bad outcomes, because it has long ago stopped doing much of anything that actually impacts energy use, and instead focuses on things like making your dishwasher work worse in the name of efficiency. A classic story of bureaucratic imperative.
Even if you do think it's doing something, you have yet to adequately explain why it needs to be done by the government.
Maybe China? But I feel like China has pretty strict regulations about a lot of things.
I can't speak for Europe, but I know Japan well. It may have "joined", but there is literally no awareness of the program. You don't see the symbol on appliances here, and I'm not sure anyone would know what it is, if it appeared. They simply don't need such a program to have efficient appliances.
One thing the government does do is offer rebates for people upgrading old appliances. One might ask whether the money spent on EnergyStar would be better put to use on these kinds of direct incentives.
The EU's energy labelling scheme grades appliances on a scale, and gives the estimated annual electricity usage. I'm sure it's effective, as it makes clear why the cheapest appliance might not be a good purchase.
https://energy-efficient-products.ec.europa.eu/ecodesign-and...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_energy_label
I'm not certain, but I think the rating would be either performed or certified by an independent laboratory, i.e. a private business, so the government bureaucracy is limited to defining the specification/tests.
(And incidentally, my dishwasher defaults to the "Eco" programme, which takes 3½ hours. I don't care as I almost always run it overnight, and it's one button press to choose a faster programme.)
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."
Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
Incorrect. The far bigger part of the program is certification:
https://www.energystar.gov/about/how-energy-star-works/energ...
(There's also the scoring system, though I don't know if that falls under certification.)
This is how the efficiency requirements become de facto mandates. Federal procurement, among other things, requires energy star certification. There are even mortgage discounts for energy star certified buildings.
Nobody forces manufacturers to get certified, they do it because the market prefers it.
Energy star does not force manufacturers to be certified. I can walk into my local appliance store and walk out with a whole kitchen full of uncertified products if I wanted too.
But if the market prefers it, great! Do it without the need for a government bureaucracy! Organizations like Underwriters Laboratories don’t need an arm of the US government to exist.
Information on performance is usually provided by third parties like Consumer Reports, Car and Driver, and other review services. Government provides and mandates quantitative statistics as a public service; private parties take care of the qualitative and subjective analyses (i.e., opinions).
Check out the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHP942Livy0
That's just simply false. Read your dishwasher's manual. It'll tell you not to pre-rinse dishes.
Perhaps it's because there's a government program requiring it's disclosure and specific testing process?
If MPG labeling laws go away, what makes you think Ford will continue disclosing those values? And if they do, why wouldn't they start declaring MPG values driving downhill in a windtunnel giving the vehicle a tailwind?
You don't have to look too far to find those examples. Go to your local dealership that has some of the super duty trucks for sale. Notice how their spec sheet where the MPG is disclosed says "MPG testing not required" or something similar. Now how are you supposed to compare two trucks from the same brand, much less across two brands?
No third party certification is involved in those vehicles. Why do you think a third party would get involved in passenger vehicles if we relax the disclosure laws?
It's like advocating for the free market by saying used car dealers should be able to dial back the odometer. That's not free market economics. It's actually the opposite, these people are advocating for a less-free market.
> manufacturers don't have any incentive to start producing power-guzzling appliances when power costs are increasing
That's only true if customers can know how much energy their devices are going to use. Energy star forces that disclosure and that's it. Market forces are done everything else. Consumers prefer lower energy costs and devices that voluntarily achieve an energy star certification
Also, "takes like 4 hours to finish a load", I have a new dishwasher, there is no combination of settings (except adding a delay) that will make a load take four hours. Max I can get is 2:36