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A comment on Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google.

Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by _ink_ on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:23AM (#43341639)
IMHO the EU should step in. Having a browser that is not controlled by big tech should be part of an effort to reduce the dependency on the US.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by rightbyte on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:50AM (#43341825)
How about not involving governments in how Firefox is run. Especially not those keen on backdoors and "Chat control".

It could be a stand alone association ruled by its members or a classic free-for-all whatever goes code talks FOSS project.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by notpushkin on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:15AM (#43342015)
If they can invest some money with no strings attached – hey, why not.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:44AM (#43342193)
The funding is the string simply because it can be taken away.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:19PM (#43348255)
> funding is the string simply because it can be taken away

Endow a working group under Fraunhofer [1]. Their product is simply and solely a browser engine. Nothing more.

[1] https://www.fraunhofer.de/en.html

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by noxer on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:22AM (#43342973)
Have you asked the people who pay in the end (the taxpayer) if they want that? The very last thing I want my taxes to go to is anything that has "no strings attached". Its by definition a gift and gifting taxes should be a crime.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by tonyhart7 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @11:32AM (#43344331)
if its come with string attached then another agency (ehm ehm intelligence) would try to get their hands on them
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by rat9988 on Thursday March 13, 2025 @03:06AM (#43350935)
Agencies seem to get involved even in private "independant" companies. It has nothing to do with the official string attachments.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by notpushkin on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @10:04AM (#43343374)
I wholeheartedly agree, though how to utilize the tax money isn’t the problematic part in the taxation IMO.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by Sayrus on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:23PM (#43348290)
Then taxes could be used to pay government employees whose job is to contribute on a specific project. That could apply to Linux, a browser, maybe AOSP. Sure it'd require funding, but spent on employees within said countries you get it back and it does give Europe as a whole the ability to contribute its vision, both positive and negative.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by noxer on Thursday March 13, 2025 @07:03AM (#43352084)
Whether the people are employed by the government directly or a different entity isn't relevant at all, the relevant part is taxes being used for something that has an undefined benefit for the people who are forced to pay for it. (And in case of "no string attacked" even has an undefined goal.)

>give Europe as a whole the ability to contribute its vision

Who's vision? The peoples vision? Or the vision of bureaucrats, politicians, lobbyists etc.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by DrillShopper on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:17PM (#43348737)
In the US, at least, all funding goes through Congress, so get in your rep's ear if you don't like this (or get in their ear if you do)
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:11AM (#43342858)
A gaggle of governments with conflicting interests are less fearful than some private individuals with simple goals - like getting rich.

Currently private companies rule the browser world and they wield incredible power over everything from standards to PKI. Their interest is a world that depends on them even more.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by samlinnfer on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @10:04PM (#43349698)
They seem united on censoring free speech and removing all privacy.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by makeitdouble on Thursday March 13, 2025 @12:57AM (#43350521)
The non-gov approach has been the last decades. I don't find the result convincing to be honest.

The path you're proposing has been pushed by the community for about how long the Mozilla foundation existed. I'm not sure asking them one more time will make a big difference.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by culi on Thursday March 13, 2025 @01:30AM (#43350626)
They don't have to tell them how to run it. But it would be for the benefit of everyone if they could give grants to Mozilla to help them wean off of Google

Mozilla has been less and less dependent on Google and is now working on a VPN, MDN Plus, and other revenue streams that are also helping it become more independent. But the truth is that if all Google money suddenly stopped today, there would be no more Mozilla

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by bad_user on Thursday March 13, 2025 @04:03AM (#43351153)
As a European citizen, why would I want my taxes to fund a browser built by a US entity and still subject to the whims of the current US administration?

Unless you mean that Mozilla should move completely to Europe, sure. But the part about the EU not telling Mozilla what to do is naive. If my taxes pay for it, of course I want the EU to tell Mozilla what to do.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by YetAnotherNick on Thursday March 13, 2025 @02:16AM (#43350773)
The problem is that the people in power to remove the funding are the same people who are pushing for chat control and removal of encryption. Even if say the terms says that the funding is just a sponsorship, it would encourage few government folks to look out for more knowing the company would die if they stop funding.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by ponow on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:50AM (#43341833)
As if centralization with one big company weren't enough, now we're not even satisfied with one country, but a block of them. Yikes.

Nope, run in the opposite direction. Unsuck from any teat.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:13AM (#43342889)
a block of countries is what makes them far less worrisome. They're too busy competing with each other - none is going to want the others spying on it's own citizens for gain.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by UncleEntity on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @01:33PM (#43345650)
Is that the same as a republic of independent states?

As long as the EU doesn't have the equivalent of the Commerce Clause then, sure.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by sleepyhead on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:59AM (#43341905)
A browser with an attached bottle cap, great idea.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by immibis on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:04AM (#43341935)
What?
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by _ink_ on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:27AM (#43342087)
It's a reference to an effort of the EU to reduce plastic waste in the environment by tethering the plastic bottle caps to their bottles.

Instead of rethinking their consumption habits, people are making fun it, suggesting the EU can't do anything productive.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:15AM (#43342906)
..and yet this sort of thing works because it doesn't rely on people to show much responsibility.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by immibis on Thursday March 13, 2025 @07:41AM (#43352309)
What does it have to do with browsers?
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by jeppester on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:34AM (#43343095)
Attaching the bottle cap is a great idea that prevents unnecessary plastic pollution.

It is an example of the EU doing something reasonable that a private company would never be motivated to do.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by regularjack on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @01:08PM (#43345376)
You think attached bottle caps are a bad thing?
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by royal_ts on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:49AM (#43341812)
or to invest in Servo
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by alex_duf on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:52AM (#43341845)
Not sure if you're aware but servo is currently funded by the linux foundation Europe. Not quite tax money, but European capital.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by delroth on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:55AM (#43341874)
The EU invests in Servo already, for example through NLNet grants.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by ekianjo on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:55AM (#43341871)
A dysfunctional company is not going to benefit from the addition of a dysfunctional political layer
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by hagbard_c on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @08:49AM (#43342667)
State involvement tends to come with strings attached. The EU would insist on the browser to implement mechanisms to 'limit the spread of mis-, dis- and malinformation' where it is up to the whims of the politicos in Brussels to decide what the populace is allowed to see and what is to be suppressed. To that I say a loud and clear 'thanks but no thanks', I prefer my technology to work for me instead of it being an enforcement mechanism for the powers that be.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @09:16AM (#43342916)
Possibly but right now you're being guided to whatever information makes the most ad revenue. A choice of two compromised mechanisms might be better than none.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by hagbard_c on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @10:36AM (#43343728)
No, that is not the issue here - this is not about which sites I frequent but about whether the browser I use to do so tries to keep me from going there. The content of those sites can be influenced by advertising (which I rigorously block, no exceptions) but the browser as of yet does not attempt to keep me from visiting site A nor does it change its contents (other than by means of the content blocker which I have control over) to match some ideological goal. An EU-financed browser could end up doing these things which is why I do not want the EU to get involved in this way.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @11:00AM (#43343984)
It could but a national government is more likely to block sites at the ISP level.

Also ... private companies can block things they don't like, such as competitors...or alter their search rankings.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by hagbard_c on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @12:14PM (#43344778)
Currently Firefox does not do any of those things out of the .deb/.tar.gz. I'd like to keep it that way, hence my resistance against involvement by parties which have shown to be either susceptible to or directly calling for censorship. This is also one of the many reasons why I wanted to see Mitchell Baker disappear from the organisation as she clearly was calling for active censorship.

I frankly do not understand all the resistance against a call for a politically neutral tech infrastructure. To all those people frantically pressing that down-vote button, do you really desire for your tech infrastructure to be ideologically driven? Do you even understand what such a thing means and what it will lead to?

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by t43562 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @01:27PM (#43345582)
Governments are not necessarily all about politics - the electricity system isn't and the road network isn't.

Private organisations that have great power over important bits of the internet are also not necessarily politically neutral and there is no level to control them.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by cruffle_duffle on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @11:37PM (#43350172)
In California they were shutting the water off from houses where people had parties during lockdowns. Governments absolutely will abuse their powers and should never be trusted.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by stubish on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:34PM (#43348845)
The EU could step in for the browser, that bit of common, required infrastructure needed to provide modern government services. If that was the task given, EU bureaucrats could be the best choice for managing it. Any attempt to step beyond that immediately fails at the planning stage, because conflating the infrastructure component with anything else creates a ball of mud and a political and technical black hole. Like your example, where the EU couldn't even consider it because member states haven't given the organization that particular power.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by dismalaf on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @11:13AM (#43344133)
There's already an independent Europe based browser...

Vivaldi.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by marginalia_nu on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @02:41PM (#43346379)
Vivaldi is just a chromium wrapper as far as I understand.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by dismalaf on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @03:33PM (#43346853)
It's Chromium with the Google bits ripped out, Vivaldi has their own sign in/sync functionality, built in ad blocker, and custom UI. It's based on Chromium but has quite a bit different going on, as much as Brave or Edge.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by tredre3 on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:37PM (#43348432)
But unlike Brave and Edge, Vivaldi isn't open-source.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by dismalaf on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @06:43PM (#43348483)
https://vivaldi.com/blog/technology/why-isnt-vivaldi-browser...

They basically just want to keep the copyright to their UI. You can see the source but they don't want anyone to rip off their UI.

And let's be real, every browser (even Firefox) has closed source server side code.

Also, the comment I initially responded to was about why isn't there a European browser not controlled by "big tech"... Vivaldi is an independent company in Europe making a browser.

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by TheDong on Thursday March 13, 2025 @05:24AM (#43351581)
> And let's be real, every browser (even Firefox) has closed source server side code.

What is Firefox's? Accounts and Sync are both open source, and I'm struggling to think of anything else

i.e. https://github.com/mozilla/fxa

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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by bladeee on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @02:43PM (#43346395)
But it depends on the Blink engine.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by dismalaf on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @03:35PM (#43346868)
So? Blink is a fork of WebKit which was a fork of KDE's web engine. It's all open source anyway. The point isn't that the code must be unique, only that it's not dependent on a large US tech firm. They might benefit from Chromium development but the option to hard fork is always there.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by Kwpolska on Thursday March 13, 2025 @03:10AM (#43350956)
Blink is a Google project, primarily maintained by Google employees.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by laweijfmvo on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:19PM (#43348748)
Ah yes, the same EU that forced Apple to disable encryption. Perfect
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by choo-t on Wednesday March 12, 2025 @07:29PM (#43348808)
That's UK.
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Re:Tell Mozilla: it's time to ditch Google by ThrowawayTestr on Thursday March 13, 2025 @03:08AM (#43350945)
What happened to HN that people are arguing for more government regulations?
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