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Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by pif on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:32AM (#43264999)
> That takes planning, money vision and time.

And a dictatorship. Democracy does not fit very well with long term plans, unless you either make huge efforts to ensure everyone gets their fair share (see Scandinavia) or you have a good plan for people being rich with not too much effort (see Switzerland and other tax havens).

Concerning the USA, the divide between the extra rich and the general poor is nowadays too large to have a functioning country.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by agumonkey on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:39AM (#43265348)
And further than democracy, the universe doesn't guarantee long-term anything. Sensible regimes (being democracy or else) seems intrinsically more aligned with that. Except maybe clear catastrophes that require "homogeneous" actions / behaviors (like asia approach to the covid 19 pandemic)
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by kamaal on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:42PM (#43276493)
Wrote this a while back on this forum. Long term winning has nothing to do with growth. It has more to do with stability. Just don't fight wars and have smooth transition of power.

This more or less guarantees winning on the very longer run.

You still have gradual decay, which can unfold over centuries, and that is ok, but that is cyclical and you rise back in a century or so.

The real issues with the US/West is wars, too many of them. Even if the dollar standard guarantees a money printer. Its not exactly free. Triffin dilemma de-industrializes your country. Your politics has too much ego to stop fighting. In the meanwhile you lose industry, stability, time and just don't have focus for things that matter. Somebody who is more sane wins in the meanwhile.

UK really needed to build more industries instead of fighting WW1/2. Its a shame that Churchill won above Chmaberlain/Halifax. You get the fake thrill of winning a war, you shouldn't have even gone into, destroyed yourself fighting, all for some fake sense of bravado which led to your disaster.

If things go South for US from here. George Bush will likely have the same standing in history.

tl;dr- If you are winning, keep it that way, and don't fight wars.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by giva on Thursday March 06, 2025 @05:39AM (#43278581)
There is a little issue: If 9 countries want peace and one wants war, you will have a war.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by southernplaces7 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:59AM (#43265146)
>And a dictatorship. Democracy does not fit very well with long term plans

Say again? If we're talking strictly about the United States as per the article that inspired this post, the U.S. is a case study of a prosperous, remarkably stable democracy steadily increasing its prosperity, wealth, influence and power while also for the vast majority of its history investing for the long term and in vital infrastructure. This process hasn't been constant or evenly incremental but it has been there for (now) literally centuries.

The same could be said of Britain and many other developed countries on shorter but still reasonably long scales. On the other hand when you look at dictatorships in the wider scope of the modern era, the vast majority of them either invest explosively only to fail catastrophically at some point before reverting to some other variant of government, or countries that see their biggest failures happen during periods of dictatorship, and their major socioeconomic successes happen during periods of something at least approaching democracy and openness.

There are exceptions to the above tendencies in favor of democracy, but China can't yet be called such. It has had only 80 years under its present dictatorship (preceded by decades of warlord rule, weakness and chaos) and of those only the last 40 have been ones of relatively stable growth, investment in major projects AND concurrent increases in prosperity. Under Mao it invested in certain major projects, but at nearly cataclysmic social, economic and human cost. Hardly a model, in those days, of dictatorship being applied to patient, wise planning.

>Concerning the USA, the divide between the extra rich and the general poor is nowadays too large to have a functioning country.

Really? Feel like sharing the mechanism by which these claims of overly severe wealth inequality will make the US collapse any time soon?

Note also that as another comment above this mentions, the U.S has had more or less similar levels of said inequality for the last 100 years.... in which it functioned as a stable, relatively peaceful, democratic, increasingly prosperous society in which overall standards of living in absolute terms have gone up enormously.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by yakz on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:44AM (#43265377)
> Note also that as another comment above this mentions, the U.S has had more or less similar levels of said inequality for the last 100 years

This is not what it said. It said it was about the same 100 years ago. It improved for a long time before going back up.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by flyinglizard on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:05AM (#43265188)
In the US of 50 years ago, democracy was protected by codes of conduct, honor, and most importantly, strong content moderation in the form of monopolistic legacy media. All of this went out the door with the rise of social networks and the demise of legacy media. I don't see how democracy has the tools to survive populists with direct connection to the voting public. Even if elections happen in 2028, there's a good chance the pendulum will swing the other way and instead of thinking about moving forward we'll be locked in left/right destructive cycles, with the resulting purging of institutions, dramatic shifts in policies and just chaos all around.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by bdangubic on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:16AM (#43265243)
this is EXACTLY it. the rise of social media and demise of legacy media weaponized politicians to create flamewars over issues which are great for winning elections but have no real meaning for our day-to-day lives. wokeness, transgender athletes, how many genders we have on the web forms to choose from, how many "immigrants" are we going to deport... are entirely meaningless for 99.98% of the population. instead of talking about how to move the country forward the public discourse is now filled with meaningless "social wars." I do not see a way out of this and I am about as optimistic of a person as you'll find... I mentioned to my colleague few weeks back when we had to change the gender dropdown from tens of options to just two to just stash the changes till 2028 when we'll get 983 options for that same dropdown :)
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by nuancebydefault on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @09:49AM (#43267211)
Personally I don't see a use or benefit of large gender dropdowns. Either keep any existing m/f or simply remove it if you don't need to adress them as her or him. Imo making lists increases chances for stigmatization.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by aisenik on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @12:19PM (#43269491)
"Large gender drop downs" is a canard, three is a large number for the purposes of their argument. It's not about gender dropdowns of any size other than exactly two as it's about strict enforcement of a rigid, patriarchal class hierarchy.

Accepting "the purpose of a thing is what it does" is important for these times. So is avoiding the epistemic traps of disingenuous actors.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by feoren on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @01:46PM (#43270572)
Most internet forms that ask for gender have absolutely no reason to care about that information. Basically, biological sex should matter to healthcare professionals, and gender should matter to virtually nobody. So yes, "simply remove it" should be the answer to this most of the time.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by bdangubic on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:15PM (#43270927)
I do not work on "internet forms" but medical research :)
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by southernplaces7 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:57AM (#43265456)
>democracy was protected by codes of conduct, honor, and most importantly, strong content moderation in the form of monopolistic legacy media.

50 years ago? Perhaps some of what you describe applied, in very limited form and only if you view a small segment of the media/political landscape with extremely rose-tinted glasses, but go read more of U.S media history to see how completely off base you really are.

Media in the United states has spent most of its history being absolutely saturated with extremely yellow, scandal-mongering political hack journalism of the absolute most dishonest kind you can imagine (yes even in the age of social media). This was the case throughout the 19th century, the whole early part of the 20th century and it certainly applied 50 years ago, which would be roughly the late 60's to the 70s.

Overall, i'd say you have no idea at all of what you're talking about and pulled this funny notion out of nowhere for the sake of forcing an alarmist point.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by flyinglizard on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:23AM (#43265619)
50 years ago someone like Trump wouldn't have a way to obtain a platform from which he can amass a big enough public following. Anyone that wanted to play had to play nice with the establishment. 50 years ago, editorials mattered. Any messaging of a politician or candidate would be followed with context, analysis or discussion by journalists.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by fuzzfactor on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:57AM (#43269212)
Even more amazing when you consider that 50 years ago Trump was embarrassingly in the Enquirer quite often in situations not nearly as respectable as Stormy Daniels, and that was only the gossip they could corroborate. Much more was withheld from publication. People were mainly talking about the way he couldn't be trusted with anything. Plus him & Epstein were eventually running buddies at one point.

For decades the vast majority of those who even knew Trump existed were aware from the beginning he was a fake and it was just so curious to watch him take the pratfalls that he set himself up for. He only became widely known because he was such a complete failure compared to ordinary businessmen, and he would not shut up about how successful he was, it just emphasized how much he didn't have a clue and he was all PR. It was so cringeworthy people could not help but notice. Some things never change.

But under those media conditions he was merely a comic figure for the longest time. Bragging about how rich he is when he's actually bankrupt in more ways than one.

It just wouldn't have been very easy to build critical mass among people who would be willing to take him the least bit seriously. Especially about anything concerning money.

Now it's too late.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by potato3732842 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @01:33PM (#43270411)
The establishment gave us the bay of pigs and then when that fiasco got them snubbed it killed the executive (or at least had something to do with it, I don't believe they literally did it). More recent examples include our adventures in the sandbox in the 20yr following 9/11. Or if you want to go further back you can look at the Catholic church in the 1500s.

I get that the establishment also sometimes does good things like create the EPA but it seems like those good things only ever happen after there's a huge amount of public screeching and that the default behavior is for the establishment to wage war and enrich itself.

The establishment should not be in bed with the media IMO. While the current fragmented media landscape is causing turbulence in the short term it is a good thing in the long term IMO.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by southernplaces7 on Thursday March 06, 2025 @11:49AM (#43282286)
you really don't know what you're talking about. 50 years ago, Trump, or someone like him, being very wealthy outside of politics, could have just bought his own media source, or several smaller ones, and let em rip with yellow attack journalism while promoting his vision. Failing that, he could have made paid agreements with all kinds of supposedly "reputable" mainstream media sources to promote his politics. This is indeed exactly what a lot of dirty politics across the decades did and your vision of some golden age in which it didn't apply is completely false. This is particularly so considering how many mendacious lies and other garbage these same major media outlets sold to the public over decades on behalf of government. We should applaud their golden past? Get out of town.

Today at least, if anything, people have access to a vast plurality of views that despite many of them being absurdly mistaken at least through the mechanism of their existence let massive cracs rapidly open in any official or propagandist narrative. On the whole, this is what major media truly hates, while couching its complaints in fear mongering about misinformation.... Much of that fear mongering surged especially strong during the recent pandemic, while media at the exact same time promoted several major official narratives that were obviously politically motivated rather than being based on any thing resembling solid editorial standards.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday March 07, 2025 @10:54AM (#43291178)
>...could have just bought his own media source, or several smaller ones, and let em rip with yellow attack journalism while promoting his vision.

Maybe he tried?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverside_South,_Manhattan#Tel...

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by _DeadFred_ on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @03:24PM (#43271817)
Didn't Ben Franklin have his own printing press promoting his views?

America's political class got complacent and lazy, and forgot that they have to sell what they were pushing to the American people. They never even FOUGHT the battle of ideas. As they age out/get pushed out new Ben Franklin with their own printing press types will rise.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by amy_petrik on Thursday March 06, 2025 @12:48AM (#43276821)
Other part of it, yes, Benny F was quite an edgelord, but it took patience and drive in those days. You couldn't just drop a shitpost in 30 seconds, no, you had to lay out the shitpost in little tiny metal letters, and make copies of the shitpost, painstakingly, one at a time, to distribute. And people didn't come by much reading material in those days, so the shitpost was cherished when acquired. Generally speaking the supply/demand curve of the written word was very much different than it was now. Now, the writing itself and the distribution is automated by machines
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by AlexeyBelov on Friday March 07, 2025 @04:50AM (#43288747)
Why did you create yet another account?
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by rsanek on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:51AM (#43265101)
income inequality today is about the same as it was 100 years ago. https://ourworldindata.org/how-has-income-inequality-within-...
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by yakz on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:42AM (#43265363)
This says it improved significantly from 1940 until 1980, then made a turn for the worse. So it's about the same as 100 years ago, but for a big part of that 100 years, it was better.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by chazhaz on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:30AM (#43265307)
...and about twice what it was 50 years ago. How have Sweden, Japan, France, etc. managed to keep income inequality around postwar lows while America hasn't?
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by agumonkey on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:45AM (#43265386)
Not sure, but it seems in France the situation in degrading. The same 1% being richer while workers / students waiting in line for food charity stories were common. Part of it might be due to COVID, but I can't shake the feeling that business management (influenced by anglo-saxon/american culture) is harder than before and squeezes employees. Not only a feeling, I worked on precarious jobs that shouldn't exist, and we saw employees having materially impossible daily duties (due to bad software unable to organize things).
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by 6510 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @10:55AM (#43268261)
I suspect that people self-manage a lot more if the pay is right. If they stop doing that it seems like you need a more expensive manager, or perhaps you do.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by agumonkey on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:40AM (#43268956)
well partly but my comment was more systemic, a lot of "new management" was about naive quantitative approaches. measure stupid traces / outputs and forcing people to hit target objectives without looking at the workflow, tooling and team dynamics

people with enough skill and compatible mindsets need no management, they care, they will innovate, improve, repair

if the structure is at odds with that, they will ask to compensate the pain by large salary bumps because pleasure is turned into pain

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by cvwright on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:00AM (#43265472)
> How have Sweden, Japan, France, etc. managed to keep income inequality around postwar lows while America hasn't?

They didn’t import millions of poor people to do all the dirty or unpleasant jobs in their countries.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by Hikikomori on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @07:10AM (#43265542)
Japan didn't, but France and Sweden does have a lot of immigrants.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by jsnider3 on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:42AM (#43266254)
Americans voted to give rich people more money and those countries didn't.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by marxisttemp on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:05AM (#43265182)
What happened in 1929?
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by vermilingua on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:11AM (#43265972)
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by marxisttemp on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @08:24AM (#43266087)
That is correct.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by fuzzfactor on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:06PM (#43270793)
It is so correct not to overlook it.

Seemed almost like an elephant in the room for a minute there.

But looking back, was it a market "correction" or maybe just a rug-pull?

You probably had to be there.

But we knew there was nothing like it until the 1970's.

So many of the people who had lived through 1929 were still alive.

Unless you were quite fortunate in the early 1970's, you would realize that 2008 was a non-event by comparison.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by regularization on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @09:32AM (#43266913)
And what was happening then? In 1916 a socialist got 6% of the vote for president (by 1920 he was in prison, but still got 3% of the vote). You had the green corn rebellion, 1919 bombings, Seattle general strike of 1919, Boston police strike, steel and coal strikes, Palmer raids, first red scare. Then the 1924 immigration act and creation of the US border patrol (echoes of today), cutting off most European immigration. Then up to 1932 and the Bonus Army and sut down strikes and New Deal overwhelmingly affirmed in the 1936 election.

There was the same amount of inequality a century ago in the US, so what happened at that time.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by h2zizzle on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @10:47AM (#43268151)
And even then. Little reported: Switzerland's largest private bank was forced by the government to take over its rival's assets. Why "forced"? Something something Archegos. The truth is that we don't know what UBS saw and didn't like in Credit Suisse's files, and we won't know for a long time, as the report for the investigation into what actually happened during the acquisition has been sealed for 50 years.

Suffice it to say that the debacle presents circumstantial evidence that "rich with not too much effort" might encourage dangerously laissez faire behavior.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by cyanydeez on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:34PM (#43273666)
it's not hard to guess: https://money.usnews.com/investing/news/articles/2024-11-12/...

Just boring right wing poltics paid for by russian rubles.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by greenhearth on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @11:52AM (#43269122)
Plenty of authoritarian countries that have been economic disasters.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by feoren on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @01:44PM (#43270533)
Sure. They say the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship, while the worst form is a malevolent dictatorship. The problem is that the former almost always turns out to be the latter in disguise, or at least devolves into it rather quickly.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by bad_user on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:10PM (#43270850)
Who is "they"? People that don't know any history?
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by tasuki on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @04:12PM (#43272493)
Have you even read the comment you're replying to?
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by bad_user on Thursday March 06, 2025 @01:12AM (#43276940)
> They say the best form of government is a benevolent dictatorship

I asked who is "they" from this sentence.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by feoren on Thursday March 06, 2025 @12:45PM (#43282969)
> Who is "they"?

Galadriel. She would be a great and terrible queen. All would love her, and despair.

> People that don't know any history?

For some reason, I find that people who accuse others of not knowing history tend to be the most ignorant of it themselves. History buffs don't seem to be walking around telling other people they "don't know any history". Just an observation.

For an example of a benevolent dictator, look at King Leopold II of Belgium, the Builder King. Loved by his people. Created the Royal Trust, donating a most of his properties to the Belgian nation. Brought culture and prestige to Belgium.

For an example of the atrocities of a malevolent dictator, look at King Leopold II of Belgium. The butcher of the Congo. Unbelievable exploitation and atrocities committed under his rule.

Or look at Ashurbanipal, the last "Great King" of Assyria, who built one of the greatest libraries in history; a collection of human knowledge surpassed in the ancient world only by the Library of Alexandria. And a genocidal maniac who spent months not just pillaging and raping opposing cities long after they had been defeated, but destroying any trace of the people who lived there, salting the land, and seeding the ground with weeds so that it would be impossible to ever re-build.

A wise builder-king with the power and drive to make the nation and world a better place for all its people would absolutely be the best government humanity has been able to achieve so far. Checks and balances are a necessity for a functioning government, but they do bog things down.

My point, of course, is that this is completely counter to human nature, and has (almost?) never been achieved, even in those times that it appears that it has.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by greenhearth on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @04:35PM (#43272849)
What a ridiculous statement. Any dictatorship is a subpar expression of a state. We don't have to figure out the best government. We already have all kinds of ideas about this collected from millennia of thought on this subject. We just have to study and bring it into reality.
Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by feoren on Thursday March 06, 2025 @12:27PM (#43282753)
> We don't have to figure out the best government. We already have all kinds of ideas about this collected from millennia of thought on this subject.

Except for 99.9% of those millennia, humanity had very different challenges than it does today. One of the biggest being effective communication between people. There's a reason the U.S. constitution talks about sending delegates to Washington D.C. Another being an abundance of basic necessities that simply did not exist when Voltaire was writing. Increased globalization, vast changes in technology, bitcoin, AI, automation, social media, etc. Why would you assume political theory from even 100 years ago holds up in the face of all those differences?

And political theory, like history, tends to be written by the victors. What percent of all laws ever written were about maintaining the status quo for the people currently in power? It's a lot; I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 90%.

There's no reason to believe that humanity has "figured government out" by now. There's still plenty of room for experimentation in what works best in today's world. For example, why can individuals not collectively draft legislation, in the same way they can draft Wikipedia articles or open-source software? What would it take to make that happen?

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by greenhearth on Tuesday March 11, 2025 @03:22PM (#43336073)
The baseline theory of the state is exhausted. It's like figuring out how to build a car. We have all the ideas already, and the little innovative improvements are the cherries on top. We have quite a few modern political thinkers as well as ancient ones, not victors, but real critical thinkers and historians. As far as communication problem, yeah you may be right, but this is a problem of implementation, not architecture.

And come on, "Galadriel" and some mythical pharaoh? This is your argument-viable examples? I think a little too much fantasy is overtaking your thoughts; you might want to switch to non-fiction for a few months to balance yourself out.

Re:The Demoralization is just Beginning by pif on Thursday March 06, 2025 @07:24AM (#43279412)
I'll fight for democracy over any form of dictatorship every day.

Preferring democracy is compatible with recognising its limits.