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Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by tsunego on Sunday March 02, 2025 @10:50AM (#43231619)
GPT-4.5 feels like OpenAI's way of discovering just how much we'll pay for diminishing returns.

The leap from GPT-4o to 4.5 isn't a leap—it's an expensive tiptoe toward incremental improvements, priced like a luxury item without the luxury payoff.

With pricing at 15x GPT-4o, they're practically daring us not to use it. Given this, I wouldn't be surprised if GPT-4.5 quietly disappears from the API once OpenAI finishes squeezing insights (and cash) out of this experiment.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by zamadatix on Sunday March 02, 2025 @11:12AM (#43231891)
Even this is a bit overly complicated/optimistic to me. Why not something as simple as: OpenAI has been building larger and larger models to great success for a long time. As a result, they were excited this one was going to be so much larger=so much better that the price to run it would be well worth the huge jump they were planning to get from it. What really happened is this method of scaling hit a wall and they were left with an expensive dud they won't get much out of but they have to release something for now otherwise they start falling well behind on the boards the next few months. Meanwhile they scramble focus to find other means of scaling like "chain of thought + runtime" provided.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:01PM (#43232425)
Thank you so much for this comment. I don't really understand the need for people to go straight to semi-conspiratorial hypotheses, when the simpler explanation makes so much more sense. All the evidence is that this model is much larger than previous ones, so they must charge a lot more for inference because it costs so much more to run. OpenAI were the OGs when it came to scaling, so it's not surprising they went this route and eventually hit a wall.

I don't at all blame OpenAI for going down this path (indeed, I laud them for making expensive bets), but I do blame all the quote-un-quote "thought leaders" who were writing breathless posts about how AGI was just around the corner because things would just scale linearly forever. It was classic "based on historical data, this 10 year old will be 20 feet tall by the time he's 30" thinking, and lots of people called them out on this, and they either just ignored it or responded with "oh, simple not-in-the-know peons" dismissiveness.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by bee_rider on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:41PM (#43232887)
It is weird because this is a board for working programmers for the most part. So like, who’s seen a gram conspiracy actually be accomplished? Probably now many. A lackluster product that gets released even though it sucks because too many people are highly motivated not to notice that it sucks? Everybody has experienced that, right?
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by glenstein on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:40PM (#43233522)
Exactly. Although I wouldn't even say they have blinders, it seems like OpenAI understands quite well what 4.5 can do and what it can't hence the modesty in their messaging.

To your point, though, I would add not only who has seen any grand conspiracy actually be accomplished, who has seen one even attempted and kept under wraps? Such that the absence of corroborating sources was more consistent with an effectively executed conspiracy theory than the simple absence of such a plan.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by danielbln on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:49PM (#43232969)
It works until it doesn't and hindsight is 20/20.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by hn_throwaway_99 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:53PM (#43233652)
> It works until it doesn't

Of course, that's my point. Again, I think it's great that OpenAI swung for the fences. My beef is again with these "thought leaders" who would write this blather about AGI being just around the corner in the most uncritical manner possible (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40576324). These folks tended to be in one of two buckets:

1. "AGI cultists" as I called them, the "we're entering a new phase of human evolution"-type people.

2. People who had a motive to try and sell something.

And it's not about one side or the other being "right" or "wrong" after the fact, it's that so much of this just sounded like magical thinking and unwarranted extrapolations from the get go. The actual experts in the area, if they were free to be honest, were much, much more cautious in their pronouncements.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by danielbln on Sunday March 02, 2025 @02:20PM (#43233951)
Definitely, the grifters and hypesters are always spoiling things, but even with a sober look it felt like AGI _could_ be around the corner. All these novel and somewhat unexpected emerging capabilities as we pushed more data through training, you'd think maybe that's enough? It wasn't and test time compute alone isn't either, but that's also hindsight to a degree.

Either way, AGI or not, LLMs are pretty magical.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by snovv_crash on Sunday March 02, 2025 @03:16PM (#43234560)
If you've been around long enough to witness a previous hype bubble (and we've literally just come out of the crypto bubble), you should really know better by now. Pets.com, literally an online shop selling pet food, almost IPOd for $300M in early 2000, just before the whole dot-com bubble burst.

And yeah, LLMs are awesome. But you can't predict scientific discovery, and all future AI capabilities are literally still a research project.

I've had this on my HN user page since 2017, and it's just as true as ever: In the real world, exponentials are actually early stage sigmoids, or even gaussians.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by baxtr on Sunday March 02, 2025 @03:16PM (#43234567)
Well that's only because YOU don't understand exponential growth! No human can! /s
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Kye on Sunday March 02, 2025 @05:05PM (#43235704)
In fundamental science terms, it also proves once and for all that more model doesn't mean more better. Any forces within OpenAI pushing to move past just growing the model for gains now have a strong argument for going all-in on new processes.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Sunday March 02, 2025 @10:58AM (#43231714)
Time to enter the tick cycle.

I ask chatgpt to give me a map highlighting all spanish speaking countries, gives me stable diffusion trash.

Just gotta do the grunt work, add a tool with a map api. Integrate with google maps for transit stuff.

It's a good LLM model already it doesn't need to be einstein and solve aerospatial equations. We just need to wait until they realize their limits and find the humility to build yet another useful product that won't conquer the world.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Willingham on Sunday March 02, 2025 @11:11AM (#43231878)
I’ve thought of LLM’s as google 2.0 for some time now. Truly a world changing technology similar to how google changed the world, likely to have an even larger impact than google had as we create highly specialized Implementations of the technology in the coming decade…but it’s not energy positive nuclear fusion, or a polynomial time NP solver, it’s just google 2.0
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by dingnuts on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:13PM (#43232561)
Google 2.0 where you have to check every answer it gives you because it's authoritative about nothing.

Works great when the output is small enough to unit test or immediately try in situations with no possible negative outcomes.

Anything larger? Skip the LLM slop and go to the source. You have to go to the source, anyway.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by CamperBob2 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:30PM (#43232776)
You have to go to the source, anyway.

Yeah, and then check that. I don't get this argument at all.

People who uncritically swallow the first answer or two they get from Google have a name... but that would just derail the thread into politics.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by sillyfluke on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:09PM (#43233199)
There is a truth in the grandparent's comment that doesn't necessarily conflict with this view. The Google 2.0 effect is not necessarily that it gives you a better correct answer faster than google. I think it never dawned on people how bad they were at searching about topics they didn't know much about or how bad google was at pointing them in the right direction prior to chatgpt. Or putting it another way, they never realized how much utility they would get out of something that pointed them in the correct direction even though they couldn't trust the details.

It turns out that going from not knowing what you don't know to knowing what you don't know adds an order of magnitude improvement to people's experience.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Sunday March 02, 2025 @03:48PM (#43234901)
And the llm by design does not save or provide source. Unlike google or wikipedia which are transparent about sources.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by CamperBob2 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @05:47PM (#43236086)
It most certainly does, if you are using the latest models, which people making comments like this never are as a rule.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:48AM (#43265079)
I'm not sure what you mean. I'm using 4o.

Are you referring to the search tool? Like when you ask the LLM something beyond its cutoff date it searches and gives you what it searched?

While it's cool that that feature shows the sources, the core of the LLM still does not provide sources, again by design it forgets what the sources are, it cannot link to the common crawl datapoints.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by CamperBob2 on Friday March 07, 2025 @05:33PM (#43295532)
When I explicitly ask o1-pro for a long-form report, it provides tons of citations to both academic and commercial sources. Yes, those are (presumably) the result of searches but meh, whatever, it works. Even if they could associate results with original sources like CC they probably wouldn't dare expose that capability, given how many copyright suits they're already dealing with.

4o can link to sources to some extent, but it sounds like it doesn't do "research-y" things at all unless you have a paid account. It works for me -- note how it cites the manufacturer's literature here: https://i.imgur.com/lRkH948.png -- but when I ask it the same thing in a private window it doesn't cite any sources: https://i.imgur.com/Kc6Y0IR.png .

So that does seem kind of lame. They will offer source citations in the free model the minute they realize they can deliver ads that way, I'm sure...

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by slickQ on Saturday March 08, 2025 @03:40PM (#43303316)
Perplexity AI does this as well and for free. And so do the latest Gemini models.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by LPisGood on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:09PM (#43233196)
There is something to be said for trusting people’s (or systems of people’s) authority.

For example, have you ever personally verified that humans went to the moon? Have you ever done the experiments to prove the Earth is round?

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by sillyfluke on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:25PM (#43233351)
This is not a helpful phrasing I think. Sources allow the reader to go as far down the rabbit hole as they are willing to or knowledgable enough to go.

For example, if I'm looking for some medical finding and I get to a source that's a clinical study from a reputable publication, I may be satisfied and stop there since this is not my area of expertise. However, a person with knowledge of the field may be able to parse the study and pick it apart better than I could. Hence, their search would not end there since they would be unsatisfied with just the source I was satisfied with.

On the other hand, having no verifiable sources should leave everyone unsatisfied.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by LPisGood on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:33PM (#43233445)
Of course, that verifiability is a big part of that trust. I’m not sure why you think my phrasing is not helpful; we seem to agree.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by rwiggins on Sunday March 02, 2025 @02:33PM (#43234094)
> Have you ever done the experiments to prove the Earth is round?

I have, actually! Thanks, astronomy class!

I've even estimated the earth's diameter, and I was only like 30% off (iirc). Pretty good for the simplistic method and rough measurements we used.

Sometimes authorities are actually authoritative, though, particularly for technical, factual material. If I'm reading a published release date for a video game, directly from the publisher -- what is there to contest? Meanwhile, ask an LLM and you may have... mixed results, even if the date is within its knowledge cutoff.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @06:00AM (#43265158)
That's badass.

Was it the stick on the earth and measuring the right triangle casted by the shadow?

IIRC you also had to do the same thing on another spot far apart and measure the difference between both triangles. At the same time.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by rwiggins on Friday March 07, 2025 @06:15PM (#43295869)
It's been so long that I barely remember the details, but yes, we used a gnomon to calculate several things... the earth's circumference, our local solar noon, latitude and longitude, etc.

I specifically remember that we measured how far the shadow moved over time using chalk. I think this was in lieu of having a second triangle somewhere else, although, for all I know we might have used a second reference distance.

Our campus had this elaborate outdoor "observatory" that had all sorts of interesting features. The gnomon was one of them, but there were other cool things, like IIRC there was a metal sculpture where Polaris would be seen through a central hole (and a guide inscribed in the concrete to figure out where to stand for that to happen -- I think it was based on viewing height).

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Spooky23 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @03:11PM (#43234517)
Have you provided documentation that you are human? Perhaps you are a lizard person sowing misinformation to firm up dominance of humankind.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Chilko on Sunday March 02, 2025 @04:57PM (#43235625)
All while using far more energy than a normal google search
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by glenneroo on Sunday March 02, 2025 @05:10PM (#43235749)
I keep wondering what the long-game (if any) of LLMs is... to make the world dependent on various models then jack the rates up to cover the costs? The gravy-train of SV funding has to end eventually... right?
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @02:47PM (#43271362)
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by blharr on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:42PM (#43232903)
Giving ChatGPT stupid AI image generation was a huge nerf. I get frustrated with this all the time.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by SketchySeaBeast on Sunday March 02, 2025 @02:19PM (#43233936)
Oh, I think it's great they did that. It's super helpful for visualizing ChatGPT's limitations. Ask it for an absolutely full, overflowing glass of wine or a wrist watch whose time is 6:30 and it's obvious what it actually does. It's educational.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by bee_rider on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:46PM (#43232936)
LLMs could make some nice little tools.

However they’ll need to replace vast swathes of the economy to justify these AI companies’ market caps.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by tiahura on Sunday March 02, 2025 @03:22PM (#43234619)
I asked claude to give me a script in python to create a map highlighting all spanish speaking countries. it took 3 tries and then gave me a perfect svg and png.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by TZubiri on Wednesday March 05, 2025 @05:50AM (#43265099)
Interesting, I don't use claude. Could you provide us with a link of how you got the LLM to produce the map and how it looks?

I'm getting this. https://claude.ai/share/7a8ecdb0-a28c-4d48-ad81-2d9e95fab538

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by dismalaf on Sunday March 02, 2025 @06:27PM (#43236422)
> Just gotta do the grunt work, add a tool with a map api. Integrate with google maps for transit stuff.

This is kind of the crux though. The only way to make LLMs more useful is to basically make them traditional AI. So it's not really a leap forward nevermind path to AGI.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Kerbonut on Sunday March 02, 2025 @11:15AM (#43231926)
Apparently, OpenAI API “credits” expire after a year. I stupidly put another $20 and trying to blow through them, 4.5 is the easiest way considering recent 4o has fallen out of favor for other models and I don’t want to just let them expire again. An expiry after only one year is asinine.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by Chance-Device on Sunday March 02, 2025 @12:57PM (#43233053)
Yes. I also discovered this, and was also forced to blow through my credits in a rush. Terrible policy.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by glenstein on Sunday March 02, 2025 @01:43PM (#43233560)
I'm learning this for the first time now. I don't appreciate having to anticipate how many credits I'll use like its an FSA account.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by heed on Sunday March 02, 2025 @04:25PM (#43235310)
>Terrible policy.

And unfortunately one not exclusive to OpenAI. Anthropic credits also expire after 1 year.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by gloosx on Monday March 03, 2025 @02:17AM (#43239119)
Not sure how it's with OpenAI, but Anthropic is so money-hungry, they won't even let you remove your debit card data from your account without a week-long support encounter.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by nickfromseattle on Monday March 03, 2025 @08:23AM (#43241471)
I worked at a company that expired credits after 365 days. My layman understanding is the credits sit as a liability until consumed, and the alternative is having potentially millions accounts with a combined hundreds of millions of dollars in 'liabilities' on their books.

More info from ChatGPT here: https://chatgpt.com/share/67c5ad36-2f84-8001-a61f-11d4e17135...

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by hooverd on Sunday March 02, 2025 @10:51AM (#43231628)
They should have called it "ChatGPT Enterprise".
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by fodkodrasz on Sunday March 02, 2025 @10:58AM (#43231718)
IMO the 4o output is lot more Enterprise-compatible, the 4.5 being straight to the point and more natural is quite the opposite. Pricing-wise your point stands.

Disclaimer: have not tried 4.5 yet, just skimmed through the announcement, using 4o regularly.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by tsunego on Sunday March 02, 2025 @10:57AM (#43231699)
Exactly! designed specifically for people who love burning corporate budgets.
Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by numba888 on Sunday March 02, 2025 @04:28PM (#43235329)
OpenAI is going to add it to Plus subscriptions. I.e. available for many at no additional cost. Likely with restrictions line N prompts/hour.

As for API price, when it matters businesses and people are willing to pay much more for just a bit better results. OpenAI doesn't take the other options away. So we don't lose anything.

Re:GPT-4.5: "Not a frontier model"? by jstummbillig on Sunday March 02, 2025 @11:48AM (#43232263)
This is how pricing on human labour works. Nobody expects an employee that costs twice as much to produce twice the output for any given task. All that is expected is that they can do a narrow set of things, that another person can't.