How would we know? If they're really successful about it, wouldn't it look something like, say, ~2 years of almost complete inaction while Israel flattens Gaza?

I think “how would we know” is actually a pretty good point. I do also find Israel’s outsized influence on the US inexplicable.

It’s not really inexplicable. Looking into evangelicalism.

Israel is a solitary, functioning, modern liberal democracy surrounded by repressive, autocratic states. Until about a minute ago, supporting liberal democracy was important to all US administrations.

The people of the US are (until maybe(?) a minute ago) largely supportive of Israel. Partly because of a (relatively) large and visible Jewish population (THANK YOU EUROPE!), and partly because it has been a majority Protestant Christian nation with an affinity God's Chosen People.

You don't need to go all QAnon to figure this out.

> Israel is a solitary, functioning, modern liberal democracy surrounded by repressive, autocratic states. Until about a minute ago, supporting liberal democracy was important to all US administrations.

IDK about functioning or modern or liberal, but the rest seems about right.

I have never been to Israel. But for a small country that has always existed under a threat of the destruction, not just by the county of Gaza, but occupied Lebanon, Iran, and basically some large population of every surrounding Muslim nation, they've done quite well. I'd say very modern. And given the penchant of the polity to protest and a free and rambunctious press, I'd also say very liberal.

You may have different definitions of these words.

I don’t think an open apartheid state that regularly supports the illegal dispossession of homes from civilians for a project of religious conquest can be considered to be liberal or modern or functional. But I suppose if I didn’t think Palestinians existed or were deserving of human rights then I could arrive at your same conclusion.

Personally I’d rather visit Jordan or Lebanon than Israel any day of the week.

Jordan and Lebanon are repressive and autocratic?

Did Lebanon declare war on Israel through the legislature or by Presidential decree? Did the the people demand that Hezbollah, under the control of democratically elected representatives, launch rockets every day across the border?

Jordan: "According to Freedom House, Jordan is ranked as the fifth-freest Arab country, but still regarded as "not free" in the 2021 report. It is also classified as having an authoritarian regime according to a 2020 democracy index."

But I'll accept your quibble: "Not All Nations"

outsized influence =/ blackmail, even if the outcome might be similar.

I see your point, but to the parent's point, they've never done so so comprehensively that they no longer need to do so secretly.

I wonder how many Americans know about the night when Kissinger et al activated entire US military, incl nuclear forces, just so some soviet weapons wouldn't reach Egypt during Israel's Yum kippur war- all while Nixon slept. Soviet union was so taken aback, they immediately folded. Of course they would, they treated this thing like a minor regional conflict thousands miles away from home. Their mistake was believing American govt would do the same.

Well, usually the story told to counter this is that he said that Israel wouldn’t get one bullet until Egypt blockaded Straits of Tiran. Kissinger didn’t exactly have a track record of saying philo-Semitic things.

Or about the USS Liberty. A US navy ship that was destroyed by the Israelis. Israel said it was a case of mistaken identity and President Johnson accepted that explanation. Admiral Moorer, the 7th chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, accused President Lyndon B. Johnson of having covered up that the attack was a deliberate act.

That's very likely the case, though I don't think either of us have the details to make that assertion confidently. My comment was only in regards to lobby groups which operate freely on US soil staffed mostly by Americans.

Were there an analogous "ARPAC" which lobbied for Russian interests I imagine it would be under an immense amount of scrutiny.

Let's wait to see what that golden pager does.

It'd be hilarious if it were a passive listening device like The Thing, but Trump seems so attention-hungry and security-oblivious that you could probably just leave a big microphone on his desk like an old-timey chat show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

I thought of that, too. Surely they wouldn't be that bold, but then again, it's such an obviously crazy idea that it might just work.

You have zero evidence for such a strong statement. Most blackmail goes undetected, so there's no way to say this confidently.

If Trump was taking direct orders from Putin, what would he be doing differently?

Oh really? Then why did Clinton log 26 flights on Epstein's Lolita Express?

All 26 Clinton flights were after the Presidency.

Trump's flights on the same plane were pre-Presidency. (As was their friendship, and their being close neighbors.)

> Trump's flights on the same plane were pre-Presidency. (As was their friendship, and their being close neighbors.)

Their friendship was over when Trump banned him from mar-a-lago 2007 and then worked with prosecutors and provided information against Epstein in 2008.

Trump's claim to have banned him from Mar-a-Lago is as credible as his claim to be able to end the Ukraine war 24 hours after his election.

If you have any information or evidence of the claim that he did not in fact ban Epstein. I would love to read it. Without evidence I’ll just assume this is your opinion. It’s not hard to see your motive by the way you presented the information in your previous comment. Presenting opinions as fact is not necessary and doesn’t add to the conversation.

Sure. The WaPo says the only evidence for that claim is Trump asserting it. https://archive.is/XK0A7

> Trump has also said — without providing details — that he at some point banned Epstein from Mar-a-Lago.

I am generally not inclined to take the man at his word.

It also notes that, if the breakup happened, it was likely over a piece of real estate.

> I’m generally not included to take the man at his word.

But I’ll listen to a journalist tell me what I want to hear and confirm my bias.

> we have no idea if it really happened but if it did, it wasn’t because he was a pedo, it’s because of a real estate deal.

According to the Washington Post the real estate deal that ended their friendship was in 2004.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-and-jef...

instead of arguing about who is the worst rapist, maybe we could try to stop electing rapists in general?

Novel idea. But don't allow cynical people with obviously fake accusations nullify the very real accusations against very real monsters.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/politics/tara-reade-defects-r...

What was Biden’s ineffectuality about then?

Every single poll during the Gaza war has shown majority support from Americans that "israel has a right to defend itself" and "the US should support israel until the hostages are returned".

I don't understand why people think it's a conspiracy theory that Americans are fine with Israel bombing innocent brown people in the desert, since we did that ourselves for 20 years on the back of actual lies and a general hatred of Islam that is still here today, where we have re-elected the guy who made a literal muslim ban, and still insist that islam is a threat through "migrants".

Americans have very little empathy for brown people in the middle east. Israel has a much more "westernized" vibe for Americans, so of course they can empathize with them more. Remember that any American over the age of 20 have seen MULTIPLE TIMES that there was "relative calm" and then Hamas started killing innocent jewish people. If you are older, you remember when all these countries openly called for the extermination of Israel as explicit foreign policy.

As of a few days ago, 33% of DEMOCRATS still see israel in a positive light https://news.gallup.com/poll/657125/views-israel-ukraine-mex...

You can argue that the AIPAC influences american's opinion, but it is actual american reported opinion that we should support Israel in their extermination of "terrorists".

Biden passed more consequential legislation than almost any president since FDR. The chips act, the inflation reduction act, the infrastructure act. The list goes on and on. He even had a bipartisan immigration bill that was closer to being passed than any other bill. He was an incredibly effective legislative leader while in office.

And who has?

If Trump was taking direct orders from Putin, what would he be doing differently?

Wait, what orders did he take from Putin?

That wasn't my question.

I've read at least one book that argued otherwise.