I don't know what you think this is about "deal making" this whole show is unique as far as white house visits go, this is no some usual process....

Attempted humiliation and bullying does not make for a good deals as far as I've seen.

What an embarrassing and shameful take. Truly breathtaking.

I disagree with you, but you are making a falsifiable prediction. Lets check in two weeks. If it turns out your claim was incorrect, do you plan to update the world that lead to this conclusion?

Trying to follow up with people's absurd claims here is generally considered harassment, so I find it unlikely we'll get something from your parent comment.

It appears Zelenskyy left without doing any deal and skipping the usual press conference, so I think the prediction has already been falsified.

Perhaps (hopefully) you are right and its just bread and circuses for us. They really are playing 6D chess and it's really about just being irrational, art of the deal style.

Perhaps related to the discussion:

The Scientific Art of Negotiating with a Possibly Irrational Opponent by William Spaniel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGO1gvNgG6k

There's probably also a case where Putin needs to be in a position to save face in order not to be overthrown - which could be even more dangerous.

On the other hand this might all just be trying to pretend there's a coherent strategy when its all just actually chaos.

You're right that it's theater, in the sense that the deal is already struck. But Zelensky's anger is real, because Trump's deal is---and always has been, since before the Russian invasion---the surrender of Ukraine to Vladimir Putin. Zelensky understands that he's going to be forced out of office and a Russian puppet will be installed in his place. He is understandably frustrated and angry, and is at least looking for ways to cost Trump as much as he can on the way out the door.

If you doubt any of this, then as you say, watch and learn.

The EU has a substantially larger population than the USA, and for now at least, is adamantly opposed to the outcome you describe.

That might be what Trump and Putin want, but they are not the only interested parties here, and Trump is certainly succeeding at waking whatever beast-like qualities the EU/NATO may have left somewhat hidden in the recent past.

Unless the EU can substantially step up its military aid, that's the outcome they're going to get. There is one card that Zelensky and Europe could play, and that's European peacekeepers guaranteeing security. But that's boots-on-the-ground, and I'm not sure Europe has the stomach for that.

The body languages of Zelensky and Trump are fascinating to look at. You can clearly see that Zelensky is not playing. Also Marco Rubio, drowning more and more on his chair.

The betrayal of Ukraine by the American people will be a stain on their history forever. Americans just don’t really understand what is happening.

I think many understand what is happening, but what can Americans do about it? Posting online and attended protests are not going to move the needle much. What I fear most is that violence might be the only solution, but I would love nothing more than to be wrong.

A general strike is the only non-violent solution. Of course people aren't likely to do that over Ukraine policy, but there are plenty of other things people are annoyed about domestically.

I do not see a general strike happening. It'd be great, but us cats are too fat right now. What I mean is that people are living too good on average. I think we are still in the 'crabs in a bucket' phase. So, I think if a general strike was organized, then many people would opt out because of selfish, albeit legitimate reasons, like not wanting to lose their source of income.

I am probably somewhat guilty myself, but I think a lot of people want someone or some group of people to take action on their behalf. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen.

To be fair, we have Japanese internment camps, slavery, the Trail of Tears, and several others. I'm not sure if this one is going to rank all that highly on the leaderboard.

Most Americans understand and oppose Trump's surrender deal. Unfortunately a significant number of them weren't paying much attention this past November and were conned into voting for the present predicament.

Russia feels like its getting a good deal because its everything Russia wants. Trump behaving like a baby in front of the world is just a bonus.

Getting everything they want? Go do some research on what this has cost Russia - its the biggest catastrophe for Russia, possibly ever. They will never recover due to demographic & energy realignment pressure. Try to think ahead.

Their demographic collapse was happening anyway. This made it worse, but they may have already just been resigned to that. I think that's also what made them desperate.

The cost to Russia has been steep, but I think Russia is walking away from this feeling good. Russia's borders are vast and undefendable so they view it as existentially important to control their bordering states as buffers. When one of them flirts with joining NATO they view it with almost the seriousness with which the USA would view, I don't know, California flirting with becoming a part of China.

Its only a catastrophe if they didn't get Ukraine. If they have compromised the sitting US president and get Ukraine they will write history books forever in Russia about how they defeated a super power, expanded the county, with a shit army and Internet trolls.

Ah trump and vance playing the 4D chess no one else knows about.

Why does Russia care if US are being tough on Ukraine? POTUS can issue an EO saying all fundings are cut and not be an asshole about it. If the US wants to be isolated from the war, they can do it without insulting Zelenskyy or trying to get a mineral deal done.

> The deal is already made. After this show, they sign it...

You mean the deal Zelenskyy didn't sign prior to leaving? That one?

It's an awfully poor look trying to come off so confidently snarky when you don't even have your facts straight.

Edit:

>(somebody says something unique, from a different perspective in the middle of a circle jerk, and all the tossers lose their shit)

"Unique"? There are multiple responses highlighting that your facts are wrong. You're choosing to ignore those points and instead gripe about having a "unique" take?

I mean... I hope so? Nothing I've seen so far suggests anyone is playing 3d chess, but if this turns out to be true, then I'll give full credit.

Ah... A student of the clown school of negotiating where bluster, threats, and tantrums take the place of compromise.

Here's the real deal: Trump is a Russian asset, and it is already a foregone conclusion that Ukraine is getting fucked. This is just theatre so he can pin the whole thing on Zelensky.

Any attempt to pretend Trump knows the concept of Chess, fails the moment you remember he nominated Matt Gaetz for Attorney General.

I don't know if it's 6D chess but it probably was more of a chaos monkey/bury the lead strategy that doesn't take much brain power (i.e. flood the zone).

My hot take is Matt Gaetz, the Greenland purchase and the Canada as the 51st state were all distraction techniques to get the other nominees through.

Alas the person who got the AG slot after Gaetz dropped is just as willing to be a corrupt official personally loyal to Trump. Just without Gaetz' baggage.

I find the idea of Trump playing "3D/4D/5D/6D chess" frankly hilarious. Hell, the man probably can't even play 2D chess. I honestly doubt he even has the patience to learn the rules. He's the kind of person who would get checkmated in 4 moves, flip the opponent's king over, claim victory, and walk away bragging about his genius victory.

What am I supposed to learn from this exchange? You imply that you understand how to negotiate, so maybe you can enlighten the rest of us as to how Trump and Vance are achieving a victory on behalf of US interests.

fsckboy, when answering mrtesthah’s question please remember that the best interests of Donald Trump do not align with the best interests of the United States.

Zelensky left the White House without signing the agreement.