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Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by raincole on Saturday February 15, 2025 @04:36AM (#43057252)
When people say "LLMs don't know they don't know" they're referring to some truism: Fundamentally these people believe LLMs are just pattern matching and intelligence is something beyond that.

So when they see LLMs say "I don't know", their reaction is "it doesn't know what it is talking about", not "wow LLMs actually can tell what it knows!"

Conversely, when they observe a human confidently says something wrong, their reaction is "what a cocky guy" but not "oh so humans are not better than LLMs in this regard."

Because they already believe humans are different and superior, whatever they observe doesn't affect their opinion.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:55AM (#43057863)
> LLMs are just pattern matching and intelligence is something beyond that.

Human knowledge is ultimately embodied in physical experiences, it is not merely spitting out words. How can an LLM know the taste of a mango? Ability to regurgitate previously written text about mangos is neither knowledge nor intelligence. To know something, one must experience it.

Even mathematicians "experience" their formulas and proofs in an ineffable way, they don't just produce text. There's an "aha" moment when learners "get it" and they experience knowledge and are then able to produce correct answers and generate new knowledge and discoveries. LLMs just generate text, and have yet to produce any significant new discovery in any field.

LLMs are like fake wine sommeliers who have read a lot of lingo about wine and can speak convincingly enough to fool an amateur but would fail a simple taste test. We would say such a person doesn't know what he's talking about.

People who think LLMs are intelligent are like a cargo cult, or polytheists who believe their idols are gods. They're anthropomorphizing processes they don't understand. How can a probabilistic next-token word predictor be intelligent? Actual mammal brains are far more complex than that.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by rowanG077 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @08:11AM (#43058245)
This is just fluff. I can read about something and now and understand it. I don't need have died in a car crash to know I most certainly don't want to be in one. Until we do actually know how intelligence emerges in the brain it makes zero sense to compare any AI to it.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @08:15AM (#43058268)
You certainly don't know what it means to die. But you know what "car" is and "crash" is because you have had (and maybe witnessed) analogues physical experiences.

An LLM has never had any analogous physical experiences so it doesn't know what either is. In fact a text model has never seen a car.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by ALittleLight on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:06AM (#43058573)
People in the 16th century had the notion of scrying mirrors - presumably without analogous experience. I'm sure you could explain FaceTime to a person from then. "This magic glass shows me the view and transports the sound from the magic glass of a friend or family member and vice versa, with their informed consent."
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:10AM (#43058596)
Exactly. You would explain the concept to them using analogous experiences they have had. What experience has an LLM had?
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by lostmsu on Saturday February 15, 2025 @11:04AM (#43059513)
This has nothing to do with experience. What experience can you have when people explain to you behavior of many dimensional hyperbolic space? When you learn SVD matrix decomposition?

You don't need experience, you need some basic concepts.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @11:15AM (#43059614)
Abstract mathematical concepts can eventually be traced back to simple integers, which are traced back to an experience of things in the world (a toddler learns to count 1, 2, 3).

And it is precisely because higher mathematics is so far abstracted away from physical experience is the reason why many people struggle with it.

Besides, many great mathematicians have explained their knowledge as an "experience" even "spiritual experience". Not all experiences are physical. Ramanujan described his experience of mathematics as lights and sounds and patterns, and this is common among geniuses.

> you need some basic concepts

Agreed. All basic concepts are an experience.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by rowanG077 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:11AM (#43058602)
I have not witnessed a car crash and I feel I do understand what it is. Similarly a 16th century person doesn't "Call me on FaceTime" because the words are not known. You could very easily explain the concept to them.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:14AM (#43058644)
You would explain the concept to them using analogous experiences they have had. What experience has an LLM had?
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by rowanG077 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:32AM (#43058779)
Maybe you would. That's not a requirement. If humans could only learn from experience and analogues entire fields would be dead. No advanced math for example.

There are a ton of things you can learn without experiencing it yourself and without analogues. For example, car crashes are bad to be in. Even though I have not personally experienced one, nor have I experienced some analogue of it.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by myflash13 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @09:41AM (#43058841)
Never experienced pain? Never experienced physically slamming into something? Are you like a toddler who doesn’t yet understand basic physics and object permanence? Then you certainly don’t know what a car crash is.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by oa335 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @10:32AM (#43059198)
Philosophers have been discussing this for a while now, you and OP may be interested in their arguments.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia-knowledge/

https://courses.physics.illinois.edu/phys419/sp2021/Jackson1...

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by HDThoreaun on Saturday February 15, 2025 @12:07PM (#43060126)
The creator of the knowledge argument, frank jackson, has since embraced materialism and therefore does not believe the knowledge argument is an impediment for unembodied AI.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by jdenning on Saturday February 15, 2025 @07:22AM (#43057987)
Very well said.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by nkrisc on Saturday February 15, 2025 @07:09AM (#43057926)
> Because they already believe humans are different and superior, whatever they observe doesn't affect their opinion.

It’s frightening to think the people are already equating LLMs and humans. LLMs use text created by humans to create more text that resembles text written by humans. There is no comparison between the two. Every human is capable of acquiring new knowledge and experiences. An LLM can only acquire what has already been acquired by some human.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by tim333 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @07:37AM (#43058057)
Things like Google's project Astra are starting to be able to see stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU2lUU5vURg&t=367s

Similar tech in the latest Gemini I think.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by lostmsu on Saturday February 15, 2025 @11:08AM (#43059543)
Huh? I haven't seen any humans create text without using text created by other humans.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:20AM (#43057705)
> when they observe a human confidently says something wrong

For the nth+1: well wired humans have built their systems trained on double checking and distrusting their own ideas.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by viraptor on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:25AM (#43057732)
And unsurprisingly, the reasoning models do better by introducing self-doubt/reflection and you can improve the response quality by getting multiple answers and auto-judging them. Maps pretty well onto the concept you describe.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:45AM (#43057818)
Sure! But we have even more work to do. E.g.

-- Natural intelligences learn - after reflection, the mind is updated (hopefully upgraded): we need dynamic Neural Networks in the systems.

-- Ideas honing, and the perfectioning of the World Model and cognitive systems behind them, should be iterative and continuous...

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by viraptor on Saturday February 15, 2025 @07:06AM (#43057910)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2502.06049

But for most practical use cases we don't want the persistent memory. We already have opportunistic fact extraction like chatgpt profile building if we want that. We also have graph builders.

This mostly covers the private usage. Public version was attempted and just ends up like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tay_(chatbot)

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @01:04PM (#43060605)
Thank you! This (LM2: Large Memory Models) is one article I will find the time to read properly, analytically.

If you like the metaphors (which this article seems to come close to), you can have a sort of "unconscious" and a "conscious" - where the "unconscious" may be somehow similar to Kant's "trascendental" (interpreted as the mind's Operating System before experience).

> Tay

Well, if the bot becomes "opinionated", it's probably just immature - just like a human. You will tell it to ponder well texts like Adam Rutherford's How to Argue With a Racist...

But surely we want an Intelligence that forms its own opinions: we want to understand and manage reality, so we should hope that a super-Chomsky and a super-Ferguson will at some point converge and at some point put their "identity"-related positions into perspective.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by lostmsu on Saturday February 15, 2025 @11:09AM (#43059552)
-- this is already how the LLMs are trained

-- same

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @12:34PM (#43060345)
To my information, and following searches only days ago, the NNs encoding LLMs are said to be static.

Whereas (for clarity) everytime one thinks he learns something and hones some skill.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by lostmsu on Sunday February 16, 2025 @04:06PM (#43071705)
The ones you can download, yes. But when they are trained the weights are obviously not static.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Monday February 17, 2025 @04:06AM (#43076774)
Are you saying that some LLMs are in continuous training? E.g. "to read the news"? (I have not yet checked how the process works.)

Were it so, anyway, it still does not seem like the process of "pondering" (that seems to be more like "absorbing information").

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by Cascais on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:47AM (#43057833)
People are surprised our brain is just physics/chemistry/etc. while our whole fucking body is just physics/chemistry/etc.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by bmicraft on Saturday February 15, 2025 @07:34AM (#43058038)
People usually get a reality check when blurt out misinformation in conversation - they get tested in school and on the job on whether what they think they've learned is actually true or works. OTOH an LLMs don't currently have any ability to test their "knowledge" and learn from the results. I think that's currently the both biggest problem and the biggest difference.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by powerhugs on Saturday February 15, 2025 @05:11AM (#43057396)
> Because they already believe humans are different and superior.

This is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of observable fact.

Humans reason. LLM predict.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by hakre on Saturday February 15, 2025 @05:28AM (#43057463)
A better way to differentiate might be to say how many watts have been used for an answer.

> Humans reason

Are you sure? They reason in a way to match others predictions, right? The problem of humans transporting information from one individual to another remains. All reason can effectively only be prediction, as it requires two persons at minimum. And there is a lot of noise to filter.

> LLM predict.

Well, there is a human that needs to reason with what the LLM has predicted. So from that perspective, it should suffice already for the moment.

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by djantje on Saturday February 15, 2025 @05:29AM (#43057474)
Ok, but are humans not using predictions while reasoning?

And are LLM's unable to reason?

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by thesumofall on Saturday February 15, 2025 @05:29AM (#43057473)
I‘m not sure we know what the difference between these two is
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by nurettin on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:14AM (#43057678)
Looks like Hoomans also terse and lazy.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by mdp2021 on Saturday February 15, 2025 @06:16AM (#43057689)
Come on.

«Humans [can] reason. LLM [in a way just] predict.»

"Best interpretation."

Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by nurettin on Saturday February 15, 2025 @01:34PM (#43060910)
It still doesn't say why reason can't be predicted. As it stands it is just begging the question.
Re:If you believe in "Artificial Intelligence", take five mi... by raincole on Saturday February 15, 2025 @05:36AM (#43057509)
See?