News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by ceejayoz on Sunday January 19, 2025 @06:39PM (#42763303)
They shut down and reopened without any changes to the law. They are open now, despite the law being in effect.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Retric on Sunday January 19, 2025 @06:46PM (#42763349)
It’s federal law, and the president can offer a pardon allowing anyone to ignore federal law for as long as they remain in office.

The courts on the other hand can permanently block laws.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by mr_00ff00 on Sunday January 19, 2025 @07:17PM (#42763578)
This feels like a stretch, I don’t think it’s a pardon they are after. Pardons don’t really work like that.

TikTok I think was going for more of a shock factor. Maybe even without talking to Trump they have credited him as restoring it, might seem weird for him to “go back on it”.

Or maybe it’s to put him in good light.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Sparyjerry on Sunday January 19, 2025 @08:34PM (#42764034)
Trump issued a statement saying that he would issue an executive order after he became president that retroactively would dismiss any fines which satisfied both TikTok and the app hosting providers (Apple, Google).
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by psyklic on Sunday January 19, 2025 @07:27PM (#42763661)
The President can offer pardons for criminal matters. However, he is required to uphold laws passed by Congress, particularly bipartisan ones affirmed by the Supreme Court.

For example, why would the President have a veto power if he can simply post-facto ignore laws they pass?

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by davidcbc on Sunday January 19, 2025 @07:34PM (#42763710)
He's only accountable to Congress (SCOTUS also affirmed that) and good fucking luck ever getting the required votes to remove him from office. He can do whatever he wants with impunity.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by paulddraper on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:37PM (#42764739)
> He's only accountable to Congress (SCOTUS also affirmed that)

No, SCOTUS ruled that the President is not subject to criminal prosecution.

---

On many, many occasions, the courts have ruled executive actions invalid.

On no occasion, have courts assigned criminal liability to a President.

SCOTUS explicitly affirmed that as the rule.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by davidcbc on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:53PM (#42764821)
I'm sure the SCOTUS that said "your crimes are legal" will stand up to him now
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by roenxi on Sunday January 19, 2025 @11:13PM (#42764922)
SCOTUS pointed out that they weren't crimes committed by Trump. We then saw the political prosecutions of Trump backfire spectacularly in a way that strongly suggests that the balance of the US population agreed with the SCOTUS call that the prosecutors didn't have a case that Trump had to answer for.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by paulddraper on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:30AM (#42769652)
IDK.

My comment was just re "SCOTUS also affirmed that"

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by derektank on Sunday January 19, 2025 @07:51PM (#42763802)
You're not wrong but the only real recourse for an executive that fails to uphold the laws created by Congress is an impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by rayiner on Sunday January 19, 2025 @07:39PM (#42763745)
It obviously irrelevant whether the law was bipartisan or not, and the Supreme Court never "affirmed" the law--it denied a preliminary injunction.

As to upholding laws passed by Congress--just two days ago, Biden did his last round of student debt forgiveness, bringing the total up to $188 billion.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by missingcolours on Sunday January 19, 2025 @09:33PM (#42764400)
Theoretically that's true but in practice there is ample precedent for Presidents refusing to enforce specific laws. In one instance (DACA) the Supreme Court ordered a President to continue a previous President's official policy of not enforcing certain laws against certain people!
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Retric on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:15PM (#42764627)
Don’t confuse the oath of office for a binding agreement. The president is supposed to uphold the law, but they are only held accountable by impeachment.

They even have broad immunity while conducting official acts up to and including breaking the law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_v._United_States_(2024)

“Trump v. United States, 603 U.S. 593 (2024), is a landmark decision[1][2] of the Supreme Court of the United States in which the Court determined that presidential immunity from criminal prosecution presumptively extends to all of a president's "official acts" – with absolute immunity for official acts within an exclusive presidential authority that Congress cannot regulate[1][2] such as the pardon, command of the military, execution of laws, or control of the executive branch.”

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:40PM (#42764753)
The entire system is built on checks and balances. For instance even a simple district attorney can choose to effectively nullify laws within his jurisdiction by not prosecuting violations - something that has regularly happened in contemporary times. Even the final check - the lone juror - can also nullify laws by similarly choosing to acquit alleged violations regardless of the evidence.

You could obviously create a far more functional system but it would probably be far less stable. The reason you have all these checks and balances, from top to bottom, is that the Founding Fathers were obsessed about the risks imposed by both a tyranny of the majority and a tyranny of the minority. And non-enforcement of something effectively comes down just a continuation of the status quo, making it difficult for any group to [openly at least] impose their will on others.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by singron on Monday January 20, 2025 @12:22AM (#42765233)
That's actually one of the reasons the president has a veto. If the president doesn't want the law to pass, then there isn't much point in passing it unless Congress makes a show of force with the 2/3rds majority, which is also the majority needed to remove him from office.

Similarly, one of the reasons the president has a pardon power is because he doesn't have to enforce those federal offenses. E.g. imagine that a president without pardon power instead offers "plea deals"/settlements for a $1 fine or concocts vacuously lenient house arrest enforcement.

The original constitution basically accepts that there is very little you can make a president do, and it instead formalizes what would otherwise be a gray area (it does have plenty about what he can't do). Some of this has changed over time especially as the judicial branch has granted itself more power.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by rayiner on Monday January 20, 2025 @12:37AM (#42765310)
There’s a bit of a “live by the sword, die by the sword” situation going on here.

Presidents can’t just ignore a law categorically (although they regularly do, e.g. DACA, DOMA, etc.) On the other hand, presidents can certainly decide not to prosecute a particular entity under a particular law. That’s the heart of the executive power versus the legislative power.

Here, Congress wrote an extremely specific law that applies basically to one company. Which isn’t impermissible. But it’s also not clear to me that Congress can insist on immediate enforcement of that law without crossing effectively usurping the executive power and directing the President to prosecute a specific company at a specific time.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by lupire on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:28AM (#42769061)
Technically, the President + Executive can do whatever they want, including prosecute parts the Executive!), until the President is either impeached or replaced by election or incapacitation.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by rayiner on Monday January 20, 2025 @10:52AM (#42769866)
Technically yes. But what I mean is that, even in terms of the spirit of the law, the situation is a bit murky, because Congress effectively wrote a law that requires the executive to prosecute a specific company on a specific deadline.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by cyanydeez on Sunday January 19, 2025 @06:52PM (#42763390)
Also, the technical bit serms entirely on app distributors.

This is the internet.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by insane_dreamer on Sunday January 19, 2025 @09:14PM (#42764291)
> the president can offer a pardon allowing anyone to ignore federal law for as long as they remain in office.

no, the president can pardon individuals convicted of a criminal law, which is not at all what you describe here

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Retric on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:01PM (#42764557)
Most famously Richard Nixon received a pardon by Ford immediately after his resignation but before any prosecution. Also, it’s any federal law, the exception is impeachment and nothing else.

So, pardons can very much apply before conviction or even prosecution. They may not pardon someone for something that hasn’t happened, but as long as there in office when the crime is committed that’s more a technical issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States

After President Gerald Ford left the White House in 1977, close friends said that the President privately justified his pardon of Richard Nixon by carrying in his wallet a portion of the text of the Burdick decision, which stated that a pardon carries an imputation of guilt and that acceptance carries a confession of guilt.[6] Ford made reference to the Burdick decision in his post-pardon written statement furnished to the Judiciary Committee of the United States House of Representatives on October 17, 1974.[7] However, the reference related only to the portion of Burdick that supported the proposition that the Constitution does not limit the pardon power to cases of convicted offenders or even indicted offenders.[7][8]

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by chrisco255 on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:22AM (#42766215)
> pardons can very much apply before conviction or even prosecution

Is this really the case? Has this specific situation ever been ruled on by the Supreme Court? Burdick v. U.S. doesn't address "pre-pardons" or blanket pardons. Nixon was never prosecuted or tried.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Retric on Monday January 20, 2025 @08:03AM (#42768270)
The specific situation applied in Burdick.

The court ruled they could reject a pardon given before prosecution thus avoiding the need to testify about someone else. It would be a moot point if the pardon was invalid.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by lupire on Monday January 20, 2025 @09:21AM (#42769000)
To be clear "they" (who can reject a person) is the recipient of the pardon, not the court.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States

But that's not the relevant part of Burdock for this thread.

The relevant part is that an (accepted!) pardon does apply before indictment.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by vharuck on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:37PM (#42764742)
Presidents can pardon classes of people. Carter pardoned all people guilty of evading the draft during the Vietnam War. So Trump could pardon everyone involved in certain companies or involved in a specific act.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by extheat on Sunday January 19, 2025 @06:44PM (#42763336)
They reopened with formal understanding that there will be an executive order tomorrow to suspend the enforcement of the ban. That is a big deal and it's something that they can point to to defend themselves in court should that happen. When President Biden signed the bill, it gave him the ability to extend the deadline by an amount which he declined to do (beyond saying "I'll let Trump admin deal with it"); and soon-to-be President Trump is saying he will do it tomorrow.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by kllrnohj on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:15PM (#42764629)
I'm pretty certain an executive order cannot overrule a law. So they're just hoping to either get an actual reversal of the law while Trump is in term or just hoping nobody after him will care.

It's like betting on jury nullification but without the benefit of double jeopardy protection. It's unclear if any of the US companies the law is aimed at will risk it.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by kelnos on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:02AM (#42765767)
An executive order can't overrule a law, but it can direct the DoJ not to enforce a particular law.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by kllrnohj on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:46AM (#42767689)
Which would be an EO counter the constitution and obviously not durable itself. In 4 years the next DOJ can just enforce the law on the books with 4 years of evidence of companies openly breaking it. It'd be a slam dunk case
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by anon7000 on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:37AM (#42766323)
The law allows the president to grant a one time 90 day extension. (In this specific case)
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by kllrnohj on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:44AM (#42767667)
Trump isn't president and the ban went into effect before he was. There's no legal extension possible anymore under this specific case.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by paulddraper on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:31PM (#42764709)
> formal understanding

I think you mean "campaign promise."

No legally significant action has been taken between now and yesterday.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Sunday January 19, 2025 @10:44PM (#42764775)
Are you privy to the private discussions between Trump and the heads of TikTok, Apple, Google, and Oracle? Or are you simply assuming there have been no such private discussions?
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by comp_throw7 on Sunday January 19, 2025 @11:28PM (#42764987)
Trump isn't president yet, so any such conversations are not legally significant actions the way the person you're responding to meant.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Sunday January 19, 2025 @11:37PM (#42765028)
Not actions, but legally binding statements of intent. If Trump offered a binding statement to the heads of all major players that he intends to offer TikTok the 90-day window and work out a "deal" once in office would be more than sufficient justification for these companies to ease enforcement until things become more resolved.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by comp_throw7 on Monday January 20, 2025 @12:55AM (#42765410)
There is no mechanism by which Trump can offer a statement of intent that legally binds him to following that specific course of action after he becomes president.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:47AM (#42766031)
I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to argue? Obviously you understand that that if you create a contract stating that you agree to do [x] in the future, then you are indeed legally bound to that agreement.

If you're arguing that qualified immunity would enable Trump to break the contract if he so chose without consequence, then that is probably true, but I see no reason that would imperil the companies having a rock solid defense against enforcement penalties in the interim period.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by anon7000 on Monday January 20, 2025 @03:37AM (#42766317)
In what universe does this apply to the president? If the president promises a company to do X, it’s not a contract. I’m not even sure the president is allowed to make a contract with a private entity to give them a political favor.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Monday January 20, 2025 @04:36AM (#42766778)
There is no law or precedent to prohibit someone from engaging in contracts because of holding public office. In fact there is even an ongoing movement to try to get more politicians to do exactly this so that campaign promises would be more likely to be executed. Again qualified immunity would probably make these contracts impossible to enforce against a politician, but in this case the agreement would work as a defense if for some reason Oracle et al faced legal threats or fines for continuing to work with TikTok.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by Kubuxu on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:07AM (#42767424)
You can create contract, but contracts require consideration, and I don’t see how you do consideration in a case like this without it being a bribery.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by somenameforme on Monday January 20, 2025 @06:53AM (#42767732)
Trump => Agrees to avoid interim enforcement against companies facilitating the operation of TikTok + legally clarify matters when he gets into office.

Companies => Agree to temporarily facilitate the operation of TikTok until matters are further clarified.

I don't see anything particularly controversial here.

Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by comp_throw7 on Wednesday January 22, 2025 @02:37AM (#42790139)
Such a contract - where someone promises to use their (future) presidential powers in exchange for some consideration from the other party - would be illegal and unenforceable, because someone paying the president to exercise executive powers to their benefit is literally just bribery.
Re:TikTok says it is restoring service for U.S. users by kelnos on Monday January 20, 2025 @02:01AM (#42765764)
That's not how the law works, though. Let's say Trump goes back on his word and doesn't sign this executive order, and then ByteDance (etc.) get into legal trouble. If they can convince a judge/jury that they had a strong reason to believe that they'd be acting within the law as they believe it would have been executed by the incoming Trump administration, that could be a persuasive defense.

That doesn't mean TikTok would be able to continue operating, but it could mean the parties involved wouldn't have to suffer penalties for their operation up to that point (past the ban date). But maybe it wouldn't work, and a judge/jury would throw the book at them. We just don't know until and unless it goes to court.