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Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by semiquaver on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:11PM (#42702217)

  > It should be impossible to remove someone from banking, PayPal, Shopify, social media, etc.
One of the freedoms enshrined by the first amendment is the right to choose who you associate with. This also applies to businesses. It’s absurd to suggest that every company should be forced to do business with every person.

As a freelancer I can choose my clients. I would hate to live in a world where a bad client could force me to continue to work with them unless they broke the law.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by Miraste on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:22PM (#42702403)
There is a qualitative difference between you as a freelancer, and a company like Visa that controls all consumer commerce in America. When the First Amendment was written, the idea of Visa was impossible. Protections from entities like that could be enshrined into law without harming free speech.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by lesuorac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:40PM (#42702687)
> When the First Amendment was written, the idea of Visa was impossible.

[Citation Needed].

Straight up, a singular company having control over something was well established at the time of the First Amendment.

1. "Monopoly" is a greek word which was used to describe a company that had a monopoly in Greece. This long pre-dates the first amendment.

2. Kings routinely gave out exclusivity of a product to a company, this is the whole backstory on the Tea Act [1].

3. Being denied access to something isn't a new concept. They could've written the first 10 amendments to address private citizens and choose not to. It's not like private citizens didn't try to surpress speech.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Act

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by Miraste on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:56PM (#42702932)
A single company controlling all consumer transactions was unthinkable and technologically impossible in 1789, yes. The US didn't even have standardized currency at the time. Control of tea is not analogous.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by lesuorac on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @05:48PM (#42705003)
A single company controlled countries _plural_ in those days.

Times are not new. Technology is new. Every problem is old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by psadauskas on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:12PM (#42705748)
Corporations didn't exist at the time of the revolution, and the revolution was as much an overthrow of corporations like the Massachusetts Bay Company, the Hudson's Bay Company, and the British East India Company as it was the British Empire.

The few hundred corporations that existed by 1800 were chartered by individual states, couldn't do business outside that state, weren't allowed to participate in the political process, and couldn't buy stock in other corporations.

During and after the civil war is when "modern" corporations started to show. They made huge profits from procurement contracts and took advantage of the disorder and corruption of the times to buy legislatures, judges and even presidents. They lobbied and bribed their way to more relaxed laws that allowed them to accrue even more money and political power, leading to the first Gilded Age.

Then in 1886, the Supreme Court decided that Corporations are People, too[1], and it went downhill from there (except for a brief blip in the 1930s).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Clara_County_v._Southern....

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by tptacek on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @07:25PM (#42705849)
It is not reasonable to compared the chartered companies of the 18th century, which were state-sponsored entities, to commercial enterprise today. The target of the American Revolution was the British government, not capitalism.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by ilovetux on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:48PM (#42702809)
This is the argument against allowing private ownership of utilities.

Utilities lend themselves to monopoly well.

The economy of scale allows one company to efficiently become the only source of that utility for an region.

Meanwhile, the customers of the utility are subject to the dark side of monopoly. Unjustified rate increases or cutting off service for any reason whatsoever.

It makes no sense.

This setup only works well for Power companies, airlines, water, waste, etc. when there are robust regulation around them.

Could you imagine if the power company could cut you off because of your political leanings? or the water company?

It is no different for monopolies on the internet.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by pjlegato on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:52PM (#42703692)
Private utilities are very common. There are many listed on the stock exchange.

Everything they do is heavily regulated. They cannot do things like cut off service for any reason whatsoever, or raise rates without justification.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by jnwatson on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:50PM (#42702845)
Do you think the electric company should be able to shut off your electricity if you say something they don't like?

The problem is that, due to lack of anti-trust enforcement, we have quasi-utility companies that run commerce. If they have the market position of a utility, they need to be regulated as such.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by semiquaver on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:35PM (#42703471)
Utility companies and common carriers have special obligations in exchange for their government granted or natural monopolies.

Certain large internet companies might eventually be considered utilities or common carriers, but I think that this would be a bad thing because it would tend to favor monopolization.

At any rate, no one has or should have a state-enforced right to an account on a particular social media site. It’s silly how fast people jump to comparing Facebook to the electric company.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by dfxm12 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:03PM (#42703028)
TikTok is one thing, but it's hard for me to understand how anyone can justify a company like shopify unilaterally shutting down someone's existing store "unless they're actively breaking federal law. And even then, there should be a legal process in place to reclaim your [property]."

The article mentions disabled company accounts. I'm sure they froze some funds too, which Harr will probably never get back. This is the problem. Capital has all the power & we have no (legal) recourse.

Imagine you get to decide to stop working for a bad client, on whatever terms you want, without warning, and you still keep payment.

ETA: It looks like the shopify account was restored.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by foolswisdom on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:19PM (#42702362)
That's true until you become big enough that common carrier regulations apply to you.

Besides, how does the first amendment enshrine that?

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by foolswisdom on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:23PM (#42702410)
To frame it differently, if you want people and businesses to do whatever they want, you need to make sure that the businesses they depend don't become platforms without meaningful competition. But of course the dream of every company is to be so big that they essentially own the market / space.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by linksnapzz on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:43PM (#42702723)
Quite literally the Rockefeller/Buffett/Gates playbook. "Competition is a sin!"
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by semiquaver on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:26PM (#42702446)

  > how does the first amendment enshrine [the right of association]
Courts have interpreted “assembly” to include this right.

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt1-8-1/ALD...

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by undersuit on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:59PM (#42703770)
As a freelancer you are not a government backed legal entity. Companies shouldn't have as much freedom as you do.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by scotty79 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:19PM (#42702360)
> This also applies to businesses.

That's a very bad idea. Because then you have to create a myriad of laws that forbids discrimination on ever growing number of things. It turns ensuring everybody's basic economic freedom into a game of lagging whack-a-mole.

If a business advertises a product or a service to the public with a price they shouldn't be allowed to refuse the product or a service to anybody willing to pay the price.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by throwway120385 on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:32PM (#42702540)
This was exactly what a large and vocal contingent was arguing for when they were complaining about Twitter bans and stuff. It cuts both ways though. Big companies cause the same problems big governments do.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by tomohawk on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:00PM (#42702979)
During the civil rights movement, racist businesses and other associations hid behind this excuse. Some restaurants famously refused to serve people who were black, Italian, or Jewish.

But it is now pretty much settled law that people cannot weaponize their freedom of association to discriminate on these grounds. If you offer a service, you have to provide the service to the classes of people that you could be reasonably expected to serve.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @03:09PM (#42703108)
The "settled law" is very specific to nine characteristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_group#United_States

You can have a "no brunettes" or "no people named Chris" rule and be entirely fine.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by trhway on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:40PM (#42702670)
>the right to choose who you associate with

how can the customer have a right to choose when there is only one option due to [de-facto] monopoly? Or say there are only 2 options and each has deplatformed the customer/user. How the right to choose would work for that customer/user?

Monopoly's right to choose their customers destroys the last remnants of the customers' right to choose (which gets already severly damaged when the monopoly forms).

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by echelon on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:20PM (#42702364)
> This also applies to businesses. It’s absurd to suggest that every company should be forced to do business with every person.

That's fine when we're talking about mom-and-pop baptist bakers that don't want to bake your gay wedding cake, or little mastodon instances that don't want Nazis coming in. (An example from both the social left and social right to choose whom they associate with - but that's not what we're debating.)

But when you're dealing with 100M MAUs or daily transaction volumes in the billions, you're no longer a person - you're infrastructure. A public square. And moreover these giant companies are few and they all move in lockstep with one another, which means you have no avenue to turn to when you get removed.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by undersuit on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:06PM (#42703856)
Nah, even the wedding cake was an issue. The city of Lakewood set aside that area of the market for commercial business. The citizens of Lakewood financially support the government. The government grants them access and ensures that the cakes are safe for everyone to eat not just straight people.

Make all the cakes you want for a limited clientele out of your house.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by linksnapzz on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:45PM (#42702755)
Quite right.

<s> Of course, I'd like to only rent hotel rooms to the sort of people that I'd like to have as my clients & guests. However, this has been illegal for me to do since 1965. </s>

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by jslanbd on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:23PM (#42702420)
Like the guy who was forced to bake a cake?
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by ceejayoz on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:40PM (#42702676)
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by gedpeck on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @02:32PM (#42702548)
This also applies to businesses.

I’m free to refuse to do business with a company for racial reasons but a company is not feee to refuse to do business with me due to my race.

Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by carlosjobim on Tuesday January 14, 2025 @04:26PM (#42704116)
Banks are obligated by a bunch of laws to do business with people they might not want to do business with. They agree on this in exchange of getting FDIC insurance for the "money" in the accounts of their customers.
Re:Platforms systematically removed a user because he made "... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Saturday January 18, 2025 @08:11AM (#42748078)
Just because its legal doesn't make it right. Mega-companies, by virtue of their immense power, should - actually I'll upgrade that to 'must' - have safeguards to prevent them from abusing that power on regular people. If those laws don't currently exist, they should be.

Also, the whole idea that companies are 'people' and therefore are protected under these constitutional rights is a bullshit concept. It was never the intent of the founders, it was act of corruption of the legal system.