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Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by jlhawn on Friday January 10, 2025 @03:29PM (#42659784)
> ... who owned the land ...

they didn't use the word "owned", only "occupied". The indigenous groups probably didn't even have anything like our modern concept of land "ownership" and would think of it more like land alienation. As a Georgist, I'm personally very annoyed by these sort of empty indigenous land acknowledgements. I'm more excited about stuff like this Squamish Nation housing development in Vancouver, BC [1] where they actually get rights to use the land how they want even if it doesn't fit local expectations of "indigenous ways of knowing and being".

[1] https://senakw.com/

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by IncreasePosts on Friday January 10, 2025 @04:01PM (#42660172)
Well, I feel like the "traditional way of life" argument is okay for why they should get special treatment. But why should anyone get special treatment if they are going to just, essentially, treat it as way to siphon tax revenue from the larger society?
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by pshc on Friday January 10, 2025 @04:27PM (#42660442)
Shouldn’t building dense housing in an area with a terrible housing shortage increase the tax base if anything?
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by phdavis1027 on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:02PM (#42660786)
Because that society committed what are at least atrocities and probably more fairly described as genocide against those societies for like 400 years. A small casino empire seems like the least we could do lol
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by colechristensen on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:51PM (#42661224)
I’m perfectly fine with modern corrective actions taken in response to past treaty violations. They were treated with as separate nations in the past and now there are mechanisms for limited forms of self rule on tribal land.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by WalterBright on Friday January 10, 2025 @03:45PM (#42659984)
> The indigenous groups probably didn't even have anything like our modern concept of land "ownership"

I doubt they had deeds to land. But they did fight inter-tribal wars over which territory belonged to which tribe.

Humans have a very well developed notion of "mine" and "not mine". Saying indigenous peoples did not have this is an extraordinary claim, and would need strong evidence.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by santoshalper on Friday January 10, 2025 @03:52PM (#42660062)
Also, OUR idea of ownership, at least legally, is based on the idea of usage and access. You may own a piece of land, but not the mineral rights. You can't prevent an aircraft from flying over your property etc. Ownership is a bundle of rights and exclusions. The idea of ownership meaning "who is allowed to hunt on this land" would fit right into our legal framework of ownership.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by WalterBright on Friday January 10, 2025 @04:39PM (#42660574)
I'm also pretty sure that any tribe that built a village and farmed had a very strong notion of my house and my garden.

Even animals mark their territory and aggressively defend it.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by AlotOfReading on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:33PM (#42661046)
You'd be surprised then. Indigenous property rights aren't homogenous. Many lacked the kind of exclusive ownership that we have in Western systems. (Some) Inuit recognized communal band lands for example, where a particular individual within that band might have rights to a particular resource location while they used it, but their usage was governed by complex systems of traditions and they couldn't necessarily exclude others from separate resources in the same physical location.

Pueblo groups had extremely strong ideas about property lines, but those properties were often analogous to modern corporations where individual families could own "shares" in the property, and exchange those for other shares in other properties to reallocate ownership. Areas within a property could also be "rented" to others, or the entire property reclaimed by the government.

The best way I can summarize it is that native Americans tended to have much more fine-grained ideas about what property rights entail than our Western systems. Capabilities based security vs role based security, to really force the analogy into computing.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by mitthrowaway2 on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:48PM (#42661190)
Is that really different than traditional Western societies? Medieval European societies had complex systems governing shared rights and ownership of common grazing lands and forests, for example. Those rights changed over time (such as through the Inclosure Acts) but it's not a concept alien to western societies.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by AlotOfReading on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:58PM (#42661303)
There's probably an interesting comparative discussion that I'm not remotely qualified to have on medieval European property rights, but there's enough history of colonial settlers wildly misunderstanding indigenous property systems that I don't know a better word than "alien".
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by ethbr1 on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:27PM (#42661574)
"Misunderstanding" seems perhaps overly charitable to the colonial settlers.

Possessing of enough military force to ignore others rights would be more historically descriptive.

Even if they had fully understood all the nuances of indigenous property rights, they still would have stolen the land. Confusion was just a fig leaf.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by ponow on Friday January 10, 2025 @10:33PM (#42663066)
Developing defence capacity is a basic responsibility. Humans can scream foul if they lose out to machine hybrids or extraterrestrials.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by 9dev on Saturday January 11, 2025 @02:48AM (#42664135)
So what, it’s your own fault if someone assaults you and takes away your things?
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by ethbr1 on Saturday January 11, 2025 @09:06PM (#42670620)
I mean, kind of?

Not in a morally absolving the attacker way.

But in a you had agency and chose to underinvest in defense way.

That said, it's pretty unlikely the rest of the world could have defended against a technologically advanced Europe / Middle East / China, at their respective peaks, and especially after transoceanic sail enabled cross-sea logistics.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by WalterBright on Friday January 10, 2025 @07:38PM (#42662121)
> The best way I can summarize it is that native Americans tended to have much more fine-grained ideas about what property rights entail than our Western systems.

Capitalism has very fine-grained ideas about property rights. Consider corporations, for just one example. There are multiple kinds of shares about who owns what rights to the corporation. Then there are all the contractual obligations that, in essence, transfer specific property rights. There are the web of rights that workers have over it. Then there are the rights the government has over it, via tax obligations and regulations. Layer on the concept of "stakeholders" that layer on more ownership rights.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by ponow on Friday January 10, 2025 @10:35PM (#42663076)
We need one title one owner. Shared ownership is confusion. Governmens shouldn't run interference between managers and stockholders.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday January 10, 2025 @04:42PM (#42660600)
Thanks for this bit of sanity. Arguing that Native Americans didn't have a concept of land ownership, while still having the concept "I'm going to murder you and your compatriots so that I can occupy the land where you live.", seems a bit like splitting hairs.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by dcrazy on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:03PM (#42661364)
It’s not splitting hairs. There’s a recognizable difference between a tribe collectively defending exclusive access to certain land, and the concept of transferable, heritable private land interest.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by ethbr1 on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:23PM (#42661538)
Yes and no.

Even in the US, commons-deeded land between multiple people is still a thing. Albeit one that lawyers hate to mess with because it's more work for them.

For purposes of this thread, exclusive control of an area, absent other claims, would certainly entitle indigenous American peoples to ownership of that land.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by throwway120385 on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:30PM (#42661601)
We even form corporations to try to deed land as a group. That's the entire purpose of an HOA -- to confer private ownership of community-owned land and equipment among the members of the community as their private land changes hands.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by PaulDavisThe1st on Friday January 10, 2025 @08:04PM (#42662306)
HOAs do not confer private ownership of land among members of a group.

They impose a mutually agreed upon set of rules on everyone who owns land that is covered by the HOA (with one of the rules preventing severance of the property from the HOA).

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by jjnoakes on Friday January 10, 2025 @11:30PM (#42663306)
I'm pretty sure all of the common areas in HOAs that I used to live in were equally owned by all members.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by dcrazy on Saturday January 11, 2025 @10:57AM (#42666699)
I don’t think thats how my HOA works. I live in a high rise; I believe the HOA owns the common areas but grants exclusive use of certain parts to owners/tenants.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by dcrazy on Saturday January 11, 2025 @11:01AM (#42666730)
You don’t need a corporation to deed land to a group. Any group of persons can hold title to a property. My wife and I had to choose whether to buy our condo as joint tenants or as tenants in common.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:56PM (#42661804)
Fine, but recall what started this discussion, this issue of land acknowledgements (which I agree are absolute peak stupidity which literally managed to piss off everyone on all sides - the right thought it was useless virtue signalling, and lots of actual indigenous people pretty much agreed, considering it a vacuous gesture). For all intents and purposes, native tribes owned that land before settlers kicked them off and said you couldn't live there anymore.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by philipwhiuk on Friday January 10, 2025 @07:07PM (#42661891)
> transferable, heritable private

None of this is guaranteed by 'ownership'.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by stonesthrowaway on Friday January 10, 2025 @11:28PM (#42663297)
> seems a bit like splitting hairs.

It isn't splitting hairs. It's outright propaganda invented to justify stealing native land. The idea being if natives had no sense of property, we didn't really steal anything from them because they had no property to begin with.

The other trope justifying theft of the land is of the "dumb indians" who sold the land for cheap. Like indians selling manhattan for a handful of beads.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by SpicyLemonZest on Saturday January 11, 2025 @12:41AM (#42663610)
I don't think that's accurate. The historic colonizers fully understood that native Americans had a sense of property, which is why even the most blatant land grabs were almost always justified by a forced sale or treaty. I've only ever heard the idea that natives didn't own land from people promoting the myth of the noble savage.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by eapressoandcats on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:42PM (#42661124)
Brett Devereaux talks about this in relation to the Mongols and other nomads. Yes they didn’t “own” land but if you trespassed on their grazing pastures they would absolutely use violence against you: https://acoup.blog/2020/12/04/collections-that-dothraki-hord...

The notion of a lack of land ownership is just fetishization.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by jiggawatts on Friday January 10, 2025 @04:28PM (#42660447)
Here in Australia they use the carefully crafted phrase: “the previous custodians of this land”.

As in… we are the custodians now.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by defrost on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:24PM (#42661557)
I've not seen "previous" used ..

eg:

  W.AUstralian Health acknowledges the Aboriginal people of the many traditional lands and language groups of Western Australia.

  It acknowledges the wisdom of Aboriginal Elders both past and present and pays respect to Aboriginal communities of today.
~ https://www.health.wa.gov.au/Improving-WA-Health/About-Abori...

is pretty generic for a handwave across the entire state.

In specific places, large tracts of land here, the terminology is current custodians - if you recall that whole deal with Mabo and Native Title there are large ares in which the traditional inhabitants are now the current owners under Commonwealth Law that once didn't acknowledge them as human and declared the land Terra Nullius.

Mabo decision: https://www.aph.gov.au/Visit_Parliament/Art/Stories_and_Hist...

  We acknowledge the Custodians of Country throughout Australia and their continued connection to land, waters and community. We pay our respects to their Cultures, Country and Elders past, present and emerging.

  We also acknowledge the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, who are the traditional custodians of the land on which we work and live, the land on which this exhibition was created, and the land on which Australian Parliament House is situated – an area where people have met for thousands of years.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by stevage on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:57PM (#42661281)
What? No. The phrase is "the traditional owners" or sometimes "traditional custodians". Never previous.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by jiggawatts on Friday January 10, 2025 @07:08PM (#42661896)
Bad memory/paraphrasing on my part. Traditional and previous are near-synonyms.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by stevage on Friday January 10, 2025 @08:21PM (#42662413)
I don't think that's true. Traditional can also carry the sense of ongoing.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by whimsicalism on Friday January 10, 2025 @05:40PM (#42661110)
funny because i feel that your comment plays into the exact same tropes about “indigenous ways of knowing” you critique
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by BurningFrog on Friday January 10, 2025 @06:58PM (#42661826)
The institution of land ownership is very important in farming societies, where land is what produces wealth and health.

Societies on the hunter/gatherer spectrum also value their hunting grounds, but in far less strict ways.

I'm pretty sure the indigenous peoples that lived by farming had well developed concepts of land ownership, but they were the minority when Europeans arrived.

Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by skeeter2020 on Friday January 10, 2025 @07:28PM (#42662053)
Or really any permanent settlement. Look at say, Northern Inuit vs. Puebloans.
Re:Meta's memo to employees rolling back DEI programs by aprilthird2021 on Friday January 10, 2025 @09:03PM (#42662626)
I have always disliked and told people I disliked land acknowledgements because they are designed to earn the social capital of giving the land back without ever having any intention of doing anything close to that.