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Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by stronglikedan on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:36PM (#42626405)
It's also not offensive in English, even though some virtue signalers insist on taking offense to it.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by tshaddox on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:11PM (#42627523)
Have you ever seen someone use the slur without intending the same mean-spiritedness that the "virtue signalers" are taking offense to?
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by hug on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @06:26PM (#42628989)
As someone who works adjacent to rail operations, it's somewhat common to see used in a completely straight-faced and serious way.

Plant failing to be properly retarded is a somewhat regular cause of near-miss safety incidents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retarder_(railroad)

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @07:48PM (#42629637)
That's the thing. They aren't taking offense to mean-spiritedness directed at the person being referred to that way, except in cases where that person actually does have such an intellectual disability. And such language is normally directed at people of ordinary intelligence, to call them out for failing to think things through when they're perfectly capable of it.

There are, and should be, contexts where insulting people is socially acceptable and where such insults should not be censored. And no matter what words you use (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euphemism_treadmill), it's fundamentally impossible to get rid of the idea that a lack of (demonstrated) intelligence is inherently negative.

(It's noteworthy to me that the same activists don't seem to be able to identify any terms denoting lack of physical strength that are inherently offensive - except insofar as they invoke gender stereotypes. Why should it be any less objectionable to call someone a "weakling", for example?)

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by tshaddox on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @09:47PM (#42630337)
The criticism of the target’s intelligence or competence isn’t the mean-spiritedness I’m referring to. I’m referring to the deliberate and inherent mean-spiritedness towards people with intellectual disabilities that the slur is explicitly invoking.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @10:16PM (#42630515)
>I’m referring to the deliberate and inherent mean-spiritedness towards people with intellectual disabilities that the slur is explicitly invoking.

I disagree that any such thing is invoked. It seems that you believe that when the word "retard" is used in these contexts, that it's meant to describe a person with an intellectual disability. I think it's merely intended to describe someone of low intelligence, which neither necessarily qualifies as nor is necessarily caused by a disability.

Nor do I agree that it's mean-spirited in a way that, say, the word "stupid" isn't. It's just more intense.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:32AM (#42631266)
I don't think insult should be socially accepted, it shouldn't, it's not a nice thing. Rudeness, impoliteness, offense, why would we socially accept them?

Freedom and cencorship is another thing. You have the freedom to be rude and impolite, and it shouldn't be censored. But yeah you shouldn't expect people to like you or listen to you.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @02:33AM (#42631954)
>Rudeness, impoliteness, offense, why would we socially accept them?

Because multiple kinds of social space exist, and some people enjoy being able to interact with each other that way and are happy to accept being the butt of the joke their fair share of the time.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @05:05AM (#42632673)
Ah yeah, you are right, there are people that have been exposed to it so much that they think it is normal, and a necessary part of life.

Well you know, things can change. In the past it was a family outing to go watch a beheading. That was normal for them and good entertainment. And they would have used the same arguments as you to somebody critical about it.

And you're right, it is a valid choice, and if you really enjoy being humiliated, by all means, you have the freedom to.

I do think eventually when the rest of the people have grown up and moved on to much more intelligent endeavors, that you might start to think differently too. But maybe not, everyone has their own interests.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @06:07AM (#42632985)
This sort of dismissiveness is not helpful to your cause.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @06:16AM (#42633044)
What am I dismissing?
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @06:17AM (#42633050)
Haha, wait, are you offended? I thought you were one of those people who would enjoy that.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by s1artibartfast on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:09AM (#42631146)
Sure. I have a 50 year old friend who takes care of her retarded brother. When describing him and what she does, she simply calls him retarded, because he is, and people know what that word means.

One of the kindest women I know, but she doesn't bead around the bush or have time for euphemisms.

Idiot, retard, mentally handicapped, ect. It is all doomed to be a euphemistic treadmill because they can and are used as an insult. The insulting part isn't the word used, but the comparison drawn. Give it 10 years or so and whatever the current word is will also be out of favor as a pejorative.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by jeffhuys on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @03:13AM (#42632153)
Already the case - disabled is now lesser abled or something.

It’s pretty retarded.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by s1artibartfast on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @09:50AM (#42634818)
To be clear, I am arguing the idea that banning words stops people from being mean, not for using those words needlessly.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:22AM (#42631221)
These words have non-offensive uses outside of schools and offices.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by hcurtiss on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:51PM (#42626607)
Right. I made a reference to educational development being retarded due to COVID restrictions and the very people you'd expect to be offended were of course offended.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by barbazoo on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:11PM (#42627532)
Perhaps because virtually no one uses the term in that context anymore. It often helps to avoid ambiguity when posting online.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @07:53PM (#42629671)
My own experience is the exact opposite. Out of all the times in my life I can recall ever having heard the word "retarded" used, I cannot think of any reason to suspect that any of them were meant as anything other than a synonym for "idiotic".

Which, of course, also referred to clinical mental disability at some point in history. As did "moronic", "imbecilic" and others. But nowadays they're really all just strong forms of "stupid".

Even in contexts where generic insults directed at people are not tolerated, it should be acceptable to recognize stupid ideas as such.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by BHSPitMonkey on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @08:16PM (#42629810)
I think you've misunderstood, then. The GP's comment was using it in the technical sense (slowed/delayed, not the common "that's so dumb" form you've observed).
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by zahlman on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @10:11PM (#42630487)
Ah. The comment was:

>Right. I made a reference to educational development being retarded due to COVID restrictions and the very people you'd expect to be offended were of course offended.

I misread that, and interpreted "retarded" as being a subjective judgment applied to the restrictions.

That said, the reading "[the process of] educational development has a mental disability" is utterly incoherent, so I still see no reasonable justification for taking offense.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:40AM (#42631316)
I think it's important to remember the real meaning of words. If you know language better, you can understand a lot more information, and you can express yourself better. Knowing the meaning and origin of words give you great insights into things.

Just because some childish people are misusing the word for some time, we shouldn't just ditch it like that. Words go back a long time.

We should just remove the negative use of it. And we do that by growing up, not by banning words.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by rascul on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @10:53AM (#42635458)
Mechanics might retard or advance the ignition timing in an engine.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by barbazoo on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:07PM (#42627476)
There's offensive use of that term in English, for sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retard_(pejorative)
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by wat10000 on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:04PM (#42627428)
Offense is all about context. It is objectively quite offensive when used as a term for a person. (“Objectively” works here because a word being offensive is determined by how people view it. The views are subjective but the prevalence of those view is not.)
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by ternnoburn on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:39PM (#42627175)
It's widely regarded as a slur.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by bdangubic on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:51PM (#42627313)
hi retard, good post :)
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by pests on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:53PM (#42626630)
Nah it’s offensive. Just because you don’t take issue doesn’t mean it doesn’t hurt others.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by swatcoder on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:09PM (#42626827)
They're not suggesting that they don't take issue, and so they don't need to take offense seriously.

They're suggesting that the people who conceivably might take issue generally don't and are instead being patronized by and condescended to by privileged, unaffiliated outsiders who assume -- without consent -- to speak on their behalf. And they don't take those people seriously.

It's totally reasonable to disagree with that view, but it's the not the same view your reply tries to engage with.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by tshaddox on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @04:09PM (#42627503)
The thing is, you wouldn't use the slur except to invoke the mean-spiritedness that the people who find the slur offensive associate with the word. If you're using it because you think like-minded people will find it funny that you're using a term other people find offensive, that's still precisely the same mean-spiritedness.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by ksenzee on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:36PM (#42627136)
No, you’re expressing a different, more lucid point of view (“the people who conceivably might take issue generally don’t”), which can be engaged with. For example, I would argue that it’s reasonable to take offense on behalf of people who can’t be part of the conversation at hand. (Otherwise it would be fine for whites to spew racist slurs in a group of only white people. If we disagree on that, we’re having the wrong conversation.) I would also point out that taking offense on behalf of others is a time-honored practice (“nobody says that about my little brother and gets away with it!”) But the GP (GGP?) did not say “the people who conceivably might take issue generally don’t.” They didn’t say “no one has standing to be offended by this term.” They just said “it’s not offensive” about a term that is offensive enough that we’re having an entire argument about it. That’s schoolyard-level discourse.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by not2b on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @02:57PM (#42626675)
Using it as a noun or in name-calling is offensive, as a verb it isn't.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:46AM (#42631352)
Oh yeah? Why?
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by huijzer on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:23PM (#42626998)
Reminds me of:

Priest: “You have been found guilty by the elders of the town of uttering the name of our lord as so as a BLASPHEMER you are to be stoned to death.”

[…]

Priest: “BLASPHEMY! He said it again!”

Old man: “I don’t think it ought to be blasphemy. I just said ‘Jehova’”

Priest: “You said it again! You’re only making it worse!”

Old man: “Making it worse!? How can I make it worse!? Jehova, Jehova, Jenova!”

https://youtu.be/SYkbqzWVHZI

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by michaelsbradley on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:10PM (#42626840)
An alternative is to use “on the spectrum”. For example, your s.o. or someone else you’re arguing with is getting on your nerves so you say: “Hey! are you on the spectrum today or what?”
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by renewiltord on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @03:07PM (#42626797)
I’m glad we’re moving on from the world where everyone would constantly be yelling “You’re hurting me! You’re hurting me!”.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by gitaarik on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @12:45AM (#42631338)
So it's not offensive. Just because it hurts you doesn't mean others meant it that way.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by danpalmer on Tuesday January 07, 2025 @06:17PM (#42628917)
Language is what we make of it, it's not a fixed concept. If people take offense to it then it's offensive.
Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by netsharc on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @04:41AM (#42632533)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdpxKqEUAw

As Stephen Fry said: "So fucking what?".

A thumbs-up gesture is offensive in the Middle East, should it be banned world-wide?

Funnily enough the original example upthread was the use of the word "retard" which is harmless in French, which ended up getting the user in trouble.

Re:More Speech and Fewer Mistakes by tayo42 on Wednesday January 08, 2025 @02:24AM (#42631912)
dang, can i can him a retard and not get flagged or banned? hah