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Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by chollida1 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @07:41PM (#42420566)
In Ontario/Canada schools banned cell phones with much of any issue at all this year.

My friends in the US seems shocked at the fact that kids couldn't have a phone during class hours. When I asked why their main issue was that if kids cell phones were in their lockers, how would they text their parents to say they were ok when their school had a shooting.

Which just goes to show how much your environment affects your thinking. I've never once thought or even considered there could be a school shooting at a school here.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bryanlarsen on Saturday December 14, 2024 @07:54PM (#42420640)
According to my daughter, the Ontario ban had little effect on her high school. Before the ban, some teachers allowed phones, some didn't. After the ban, some teachers allow phones and some don't. Many teachers use internet resources in their classroom, and phones are how the students access those. There are Chromebooks available, but not enough for everybody, and they are in rough shape.

And the other daughter's middle school is still the same as before the ban. They previously had a ban stricter than the provincial government's mandate so nothing changed.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:06PM (#42420698)
this sounds possibly like a whole lot of things but “ban” is not one of them - maybe something like Ontario “you can do whatever teacher says” thing
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by zozbot234 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @07:44PM (#42420587)
> their main issue was that if kids cell phones were in their lockers, how would they text their parents to say they were ok when their school had a shooting.

If the main purpose is just texting with their parents in case of emergency, they could get an old-fashioned pager for that. I heard that these devices are a pretty severe explosion hazard though.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Cpoll on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:01PM (#42420670)
You can't send messages with an old-fashioned pager. (There are two-way pagers, but I don't think those were ever common).
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by myko on Saturday December 14, 2024 @07:42PM (#42420573)
yep, my kids HS has a cloth rack hanging on the door to place phones in so the kids can grab them when a shooting is happening but doesn't have them during class
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by ipaddr on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:30PM (#42421258)
How often is their a school shooting when this would be useful?
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by tbihl on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:11PM (#42421406)
It hasn't happened yet, but if it did, then it still wouldn't be useful.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by myko on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:24PM (#42427203)
Not one I'm aware of since my oldest has been at the school, but there has been at another in the same city
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Phelinofist on Sunday December 15, 2024 @03:19AM (#42422280)
Honestly this is really sad
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by getnormality on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:28PM (#42420776)
Do people really think this way? In good faith? They have such a high sense of risk from school shootings that they have to organize their daily activities around that possibility, regardless of whether it may be ruining the learning environment, the entire nominal purpose of school?
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by SoftTalker on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:17PM (#42420980)
When you do active shooter drills during school three or four times a year, then yes that sort of creates and reinforces a skewed perspective on the real risk.

Like, what difference does it make anyway if the kid can or cannot text the parent? Not like the parent can alter the situation in any way.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by ryandrake on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:58PM (#42421153)
> Like, what difference does it make anyway if the kid can or cannot text the parent? Not like the parent can alter the situation in any way.

Yea this is what I don’t get. How is a cell phone actually going to help when there’s a school shooter? I guess you can throw the phone at his head. There’s pretty much no reason a kid needs a phone in school. If the parent needs to get in touch with him they can call the office like in the 70s, 80s, 90s, and 2000s.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:04PM (#42421178)
they have phones in closets where kids are hiding parents can call to make sure their child is still breathing?!

I am 10000% anti-phones in schools but this is silly argument to make. every parent of a child in America worries every day something may happen and when it does time it takes to reach your kid will be the longest time no parent should have to live through

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by ryandrake on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:18PM (#42421222)
I'm a parent and the last thing I'd want, if heaven forbid there was a school shooter, would be my kid (or any kid) talking on their cell phones or having the phones ringing and making noise that might cause the shooter to go investigate. A parent can literally do nothing about the situation over the phone.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:20PM (#42421428)
spoken like a true parent, albeit irresponsible one…

this situation is also rehearsed - phone on silent, text only, safe words … hope you never need to be prepared for it

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by quesera on Sunday December 15, 2024 @03:04PM (#42425597)
This is a terrifying way to raise children.

I.e. it sounds like you've terrified your children.

Why would you do that?

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Sunday December 15, 2024 @08:21PM (#42427183)
there are active shooter drills in schools across the United States since like PK so you know, terrifying part is already done by government which encourages slaughter of children in schools (e.g. sandy hook) which then schools have to prepare for… then as a parent you have to try to explain this to your kid and best way to do that is to prepare some more on a personal level
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by quesera on Monday December 16, 2024 @10:09AM (#42431682)
Active shooter drills are a tragic case of adults failing to deal with adult problems.

We scare children because we're scared, and somehow imagine that sharing that fear with them is helpful to anything but our own selfish fear of fear.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Monday December 16, 2024 @04:35PM (#42435712)
and yet if you live in Madison today… https://apple.news/AY6KuotdlTFW4aCRQYKH1Jw
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by quesera on Monday December 16, 2024 @06:05PM (#42436494)
School shootings are real, and are legitimately frightening.

But I suggest that active shooter drills do more harm than good.

And I suggest that it's a mistake for parents to legitimize active shooter drills by giving their kids special silent-phone-text-me-safe-words instructions.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Monday December 16, 2024 @08:28PM (#42437447)
I agree that they are real and frightening and given that the preparation for this unlikely event can be a difference between life and death.

like the stories of companies at world trade center who took time to practice the extremely unlikely event of “airplane hit the building how do we get out” and then safely got out cause they knew what they needed to do, kids also need to be prepared as well. it is horrible thing kids have to go through in the US but pretending this is not happening I believe is not the way to approach it

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by quesera on Tuesday December 17, 2024 @09:31AM (#42441608)
No one said anything about pretending it's not happening.

The correct method of training humans to conduct themselves in an orderly fashion under dramatic circumstances does not involve frightening them.

Prepare for all sorts of emergency scenarios. Tornadoes, earthquakes, power outages, fires, police activity, bomb threats. Prepare for them appropriately. In some cases: assemble at a distance outside. In some cases: go to safe assigned locations. In some cases: shelter in place. Category X scenario: take action Y.

Don't tell kids that superbad monsters are coming to get you and it's your responsibility to hide and not die (but make sure to text mommy and daddy! phone on silent!!1!!1! safeword "cacao"!!) when these evil creatures with big magic weapons come to hunt you down and watch you twist and scream in pain and eat your liver and we're soo worried about you and just want you to be safe so please don't die gruesomely, we love you so sorry we can't protect you make sure to study hard and do your homework.

The foregoing is an only slightly editorialized version of the way some schools and some parents communicate ASD importance to their children. I've seen worse. It involved parents sobbing. I've seen better too, but not much better.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by tbihl on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:09PM (#42421398)
I have a very particular set of skills...
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bnj on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:55PM (#42421138)
Yes, New York State is considering some form of cell phone restrictions in schools from the State level and there's substantial push back from parents who object that they need their kids to have a cell phone for safety reasons like a school shooting.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by ta988 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:47PM (#42420854)
Yes it is really part of the thought processes of people I have met too. Really strange how the reality can be distorted to make room for guns.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by paulddraper on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:29PM (#42420782)
Replace shooting with fire, flood, earthquake, tornado, etc

IMO the objection is dumb regardless, but maybe that will help translate.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by rrr_oh_man on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:42PM (#42420842)
Fires, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes do not happen several times a week in the US, unlike mass shootings.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by paulddraper on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:36PM (#42421069)
Are you talking about at schools or generally?

Both happen several times per week, neither happen several times per week at schools.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bnj on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:59PM (#42421156)
This source [0] says 81 school shootings in the US as of 12/6/24, so while not quite several times per week on average, it's within the margin of error.

[0]: https://www.cnn.com/us/school-shootings-fast-facts-dg/index....

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by tbihl on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:10PM (#42421402)
You're being down voted because your source links known disinformation sites (detailed elsewhere in the thread.)
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by zdragnar on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:30PM (#42420791)
As an American, I'm at a loss trying to figure out when phones started being allowed in school.

Back in my day, all electronics had to stay in your locker except your calculator, including pagers, personal organizers and for the very few kids who were wealthy enough to have one, phones as well. This would be about the time that Motorola and Nokia were selling giant bricks that they called phones.

Edit: and no, school shootings had nothing to do with the change. We'd gone through Columbine not long before, and despite the media spamming everyone they're very rare even today.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by warner25 on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:39PM (#42421488)
> trying to figure out when phones started being allowed in school

I was a high school senior in 2003-2004, and my dad gave me a phone to use that year, and I think most of my classmates had one too, but I don't actually remember there being any problem or policy about it. I assume that's because phones were just phones at the time, and who were you going to call during class? I don't think I even sent or received a text message until a couple years later.

By 2011, when my wife started teaching in a public high school, it was the wild west with phones. The school policy gave her the authority to take them away during class, but then she was responsible for documenting and safekeeping them, so she didn't bother despite the constant distraction as kids openly looked at them during class.

The capabilities and market penetration grew so fast that I think most schools were just caught off guard, trying in vein to implement rules after the phones were already in every kid's hand.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Izkata on Sunday December 15, 2024 @01:12PM (#42424914)
I was around the same time as you, and I think the official rules for my school were simply that you can't use them in class. Exact repercussions left up to the individual teachers. Most didn't care unless it disrupted the class or was during a test, and a favorite for the class-disruption case was to answer the phone for the student and embarrass them.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by ubj on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:39PM (#42420825)
Also as an American, my experience was that the majority of high school students didn't care about the rules on phones. I attended high school when Motorola Razr flip phones were the hot new technology, and kids used them in class all time. People learned how to do T9 texts without looking so they could slip their hand into a backpack or pocket during class. There were even ringtones high pitched enough that adults typically didn't hear them. All of this under the threat of phones being confiscated if caught.

I'm not defending the use of cell phones in class. But there have to be more effective ways to reduce their use among students rather than simply banning them.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by DaSHacka on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:29PM (#42421461)
> But there have to be more effective ways to reduce their use among students rather than simply banning them.

Arguably those have all been tried, and don't work.

I think it's not hard to imagine why algebra may be less captivating than a constant short-form-video dopamine stream for an adolecent.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @08:50PM (#42420872)
rare as in 1,200+ in the last 4 years… https://k12ssdb.org/all-shootings

that’s about 1,200 more than parents worry about anything else

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by quantumfissure on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:35PM (#42421065)
Please keep in mind, these lists are usually completely arbitrary and have very loose definitions of "school shootings", based around the usual theatrics of security and terror theater.

Some examples that have been on these lists in the past:

- A school resource officers firearm that accidentally went off when a child hugged around his waist. No injuries (there are other questions, but doesn't qualify in the same way)

- An empty .22 casing found in a random school parking lot, probably fell out of a car or got caught in a boot or similar.

- A gang fight at 1am on a Saturday near to school property.

- My personal favorite: The two schools closest to me that showed up on one of the lists (Everytown, I believe?) because the police were dealing with an active robbery situation about 1/2 mi away and they asked the schools to go into lockdown. Apparently "lockdown" immediately and only ever means schools shooting.

- 2/3rd of school shootings that NPR couldn't verify happened.[1] [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-sch...

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by basisword on Sunday December 15, 2024 @07:00AM (#42422980)
>> Please keep in mind, these lists are usually completely arbitrary and have very loose definitions of "school shootings"

While I get your point, I think when you have to be concerned about how 'school shooting' is defined your country has a big problem.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Sunday December 15, 2024 @01:12PM (#42424915)
amen :) when you start weeding through thousands of things to find “silver lining” you have already lost (US has lost all sense of protecting our children a long time ago and it is nonsense like this that is poisoning people’s brains in defense of 2nd amendment (err gun lobbyists…)
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Izkata on Sunday December 15, 2024 @01:17PM (#42424948)
Their point is how much media hysteria hypes things up, and people from other countries accepting that distorted view of the country as normal here.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by zdragnar on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:31PM (#42421047)
And the vast majority of those are accidental, drive by, and "escalation of dispute" per your link. These are not the kinds of shootings that parents want kids to be texting about, these are run of the mill gang activity.

The mass violence shootings that you hear about on TV where anyone and everyone might be a victim are the exception, not the norm.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @09:35PM (#42421063)
guessing you just might not be a parent yet…
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by zdragnar on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:20PM (#42421227)
When you live in a city with lots of crime and there's a shooting in the parking lot of the school at one in the morning, it's not really something that needs an urgent text from the kids.
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Saturday December 14, 2024 @11:22PM (#42421439)
I definitely agree. If my kid went to school in south side chicago I’d get bored getting texts 291 times per day, yea
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by zdragnar on Sunday December 15, 2024 @10:02AM (#42423764)
I think you've missed my point.

Yes, I want to know these things happen.

No, they are not such an emergency that my kid needs to be taking time from class to text me about it.

Most schools in areas with lots of crime or gang activity have metal detectors and other security at the doors. Violence is happening off hours, or between gang members either off campus (but close enough to warrant bringing people inside) or at the edges.

In a country with hundreds of millions of people, a thousand over four years is not exactly a rounding error given that it is concentrated in a few areas, but still close enough that the vast majority will never experience it in their lives.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by bdangubic on Sunday December 15, 2024 @01:16PM (#42424936)
this is a good thing I can talk to my kid about… there’s this Earth and on this Earth there is this Country where based on number of people that live there vast majority will not experience being gunned down in what should be 2nd safest place you can be. no other country on Earth has these issues, even ones that are 5x+ size of this one. But you know, statistically speaking you should technically be OK…
Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by tptacek on Monday December 16, 2024 @12:41AM (#42428253)
Don't let me ruin this for you but shootings inside CPS schools are extremely rare.

https://www.chds.us/sssc/data-map/

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by protocolture on Saturday December 14, 2024 @10:45PM (#42421306)
My only issue is that its baffling to me that you would deprive kids of a platform that is going to be relatively omnipresent in their lives.

Like, a locked down school approved phone that cant load social apps makes sense (And yeah I am more than happy if the tooling is swiss cheese, because we need to inspire new pentesters somehow). But removing them entirely? That seems bonkers.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Aerroon on Sunday December 15, 2024 @02:32AM (#42422111)
This baffles me as well. A large group of people seem to immediately treat it as a foregone conclusion that smartphone bans are entirely positive. Nobody seems to even question the idea that we shouldn't ban things by default.

The evidence that's used for these bans is more "everyone knows this is true" and less "we have proven that this causes way too much farm, therefore we're banning it". Everyone knows sitting too close to the TV ruins your eyesight, right?

Of course smartphones shouldn't be in use during class, but that seems to hardly ever be in question. It's always "total phone ban" advocated by people who will never be impacted by it based on some bogus study like in the original article.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by graemep on Sunday December 15, 2024 @06:24AM (#42422876)
We ban lot of things for kids that they have to cope with in adult life.

The US even bans alcohol for young adults, and there are few places where someone under 16 can buy it.

Social media is designed to be addictive, and it seems reasonable to ban addictive things for kids by default. IMO we would be better off if adults stopped using it too.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by protocolture on Sunday December 15, 2024 @09:26PM (#42427480)
We do ban lots of things that kids will have to cope with in adult life.

But we don't ban harmless tools that kids will need to learn to use in adult life.

And you can tell me all about the harms of social media, but social media can be accessed via computer also. Then you will tell me all about how computers are locked down to prevent access to social media at school. Effectively you will go on to describe reasonable controls that schools have decided they simply wont implement in this case.

The truth of the matter is technical literacy is in decline, schools have almost completely vacated the space. If teachers are mad at distracted students they can incorporate the distraction into the education (My secondary school did this with classes Excel in for basic financial maths, edutainment games, dedicated computer research lessons for otherwise book subjects) or choose to entirely stunt the kids by removing them.

Schools did this same shit to computers, they started by banning them, then incorporating them in lots of meaningful ways. If schools tried to ban laptops at school today we would be up in arms, but lots of "reasonable" people saw it as an easy quick win the last time around.

The trick here is to convince schools not to be 10 years behind but to keep up. If that means more funding in you jurisdiction, or higher fees, then do it.

I always remember a good friend of mine who was the first in his entire school to write an essay on his Apple II and print it off to hand in to the teacher. He got a zero for "cheating" and swore off computers until he was over 30. I imagine his experience would be familiar to kids caught "cheating" by using their pocket access to all of human knowledge to conduct research.

Re:School smartphone ban results in better sleep and improve... by Aerroon on Monday December 16, 2024 @07:07PM (#42436949)
>Social media is designed to be addictive, and it seems reasonable to ban addictive things for kids by default.

Like certain types of food? Watching TV? Playing video games? Reading (fiction) books? Getting into relationships/making friends? Pretty much everything great in life can become an addiction.

If the claim is that social media is designed to be addictive, therefore we should ban it, then I would love someone being able to demonstrate that and that in this instance it's worse than usual. I want to see what "rules" they use to design something to be addictive, but I don't think this demonstration is ever going to happen, because social media isn't designed to be addictive - nobody knows how to do that. It's iteratively designed. They try stuff and make more of what works.